How much would you support Rand for president?

[Anti Federalist]

Are you supporting Rand?

Yeah, probably, unless he says or does something way over the line.

 

[Rocco]

The guy said that Clapper should be in prison for lying to congress, introduced a bill to enforce the 4th amendment and is leading a class action suit against the NSA. He is the number one opponent of domestic spying in politics today. Calling him a libertarian is reflective of his actions.

Hey, I'm still marginally supporting Rand, but I think calling him "libertarian" is an absolutely total joke after the whole Snowden debackle. My dad doesn't even pretend to be a libertarian and he agreed that Snowden shouldn't be charged. Rand's pandering to the "law and order" crowd on this issue is doing absolutely crap as far as educating the masses goes. I'd really like to see how he's educating anyone at all. I want to be open minded on this point, but I don't see it. Way I see it, he's just trying to win.

And from what you've told me in PMs, you even think Mike Lee and Ted Cruz count as our "libertarian pals" with regards to this.

I agree with pushing liberty forward, and not solely saying "voluntarism or bust", but somebody has to at least be a constitutional conservative before I consider them worth my time. Rand qualifies, but not by much and not by enough to really excite me.


Are you supporting Rand?

 

[whoisjohngalt]

Hey, I'm still marginally supporting Rand, but I think calling him "libertarian" is an absolutely total joke after the whole Snowden debackle. My dad doesn't even pretend to be a libertarian and he agreed that Snowden shouldn't be charged. Rand's pandering to the "law and order" crowd on this issue is doing absolutely crap as far as educating the masses goes. I'd really like to see how he's educating anyone at all. I want to be open minded on this point, but I don't see it. Way I see it, he's just trying to win.

You are constantly missing the forest for the trees. I feel bad for you. Or you aren't really as oblivious as you seem to be. Is everything always on the nose with you?

Remember that time he swung public opinion on drones by 30 points or so overnight? His issues get press, that's how he is educating. He has a large audience that likes him and will listen to him. Have you ever tried to convince people yourself? Ever noticed how they get defensive and shut you out the moment they deem your words too far outside of their comfort zone?

You are ignoring all the evidence suggesting he is much more Ron than we want people to think. I hope some day you will come around. If i could design a candidate it would be someone with Ron's principles and Reagan's charm. We got something pretty damn close, but you want to blow it all up because you can't trust that he is actually a libertarian.

You want someone who SAYS libertarian things to educate people? What politicians say never has much to do with how they act. If it did, they would never have been elected.

 

[jurgs01]

The guy said that Clapper should be in prison for lying to congress, introduced a bill to enforce the 4th amendment and is leading a class action suit against the NSA. He is the number one opponent of domestic spying in politics today. Calling him a libertarian is reflective of his actions.

Rand is the most libertarian Senator. That is pretty much undebatable. Amash and Massie are more libertarian in the House, but they are playing different roles than Rand.

Hopefully, we can get 50% of the following list into the Senate:
AK-Joe Miller, GA-Paul Broun, KS-Milton Wolf, KY-Matt Bevin, NH Jim Rubens, NM-David Clements, NC-Greg Brannon, SC-Bright or Mace, TX-Stovall or Stockman, VA-Shak Hill.

Also, there are "fellow travelers" that would support a lot of liberty policies if elected:
LA-Rob Manness, MS-Chris McDaniel, NE-Osborn or Sasse, TN-Joe Carr, SD-Stace Nelson, ND-Annette Bosworth

If you get 50% of all of those, that's eight liberty-leaning folks that join the maybe 10 in the Senate right now. Additionally, who becomes the Senate Majority leader with that shift and the Republicans going over 50 in the senate?

There are also a lot more liberty-oriented people running for the U.S. House and state/local government. 2014 and 2016 can be huge years for liberty.

 

[RonPaulGeorge&Ringo]

I'll donate anytime there is a moneybomb

Aren't "moneybombs" kind of pointless now? This was a great idea in 2008 when it forced the media to cover Ron as a serious candidate and include him in the debates. But they weren't locking Ron out of the debates in 2012 and they won't be locking out Rand in 2016.

 

[fisharmor]

You are ignoring all the evidence suggesting he is much more Ron than we want people to think.

Yeah, I've heard that before. A lot.
And each time, I ask for some evidence.
And then the thread dies. Some other shit-chucking happens, but never does the evidence follow.

So Rand's some kind of sleeper agent.
Great.
Glad you guys believe that.
I need a bit more than which particular set of testicles produced half his chromosomes.

The things he says and does distress me, and nobody seems to be able to itemize the good stuff he's doing.
I ordered prime rib, and you guys are telling me the bacon cheeseburger is the same thing.
It's not, and at this point I take offense to the suggestion.

 

[CaptUSA]

I'll max out. And then donate time and energy.

Even if it is all for nothing, at least I can tell my son I did all I could to gain his freedom.

 

[jurgs01]

Yeah, I've heard that before. A lot.
And each time, I ask for some evidence.
And then the thread dies. Some other shit-chucking happens, but never does the evidence follow.

So Rand's some kind of sleeper agent.
Great.
Glad you guys believe that.
I need a bit more than which particular set of testicles produced half his chromosomes.

The things he says and does distress me, and nobody seems to be able to itemize the good stuff he's doing.
I ordered prime rib, and you guys are telling me the bacon cheeseburger is the same thing.
It's not, and at this point I take offense to the suggestion.

Itemization:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/freedomindex/profile.php?id=P000603
http://congress.freedomworks.org/legislators/rand-paul
http://www.heritageactionscorecard.com/members/member/P000603
http://www.scribd.com/doc/126485325/2012-Ratings-of-the-United-States-Congress

Anti-Drone fillibuster
Time's world most influential people 2013
Member of Senate Foreign Relations committee, Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, Homeland Security and Government Affairs, and Small Business committees
Class-action lawsuit against the NSA
Written two books, one very pointedly showing government overreach (bullying)
Worked to stop mandatory minimum sentencing.
Is translating the libertarian vision to social conservatives. I have personally seen social conservatives who were brainwashed by the Bush-Rove years eyes opening to the ideas of liberty.

WTF do you want? I can understand if you want a true libertarian then Rand is not going to 100% fit the bill, but he is doing more to advance the libertarian cause than anybody other than his father.

 

[Trigonx]

I maxed out to Ron during 2012, as of now my goal is to also max out for Rand in 2016.

 

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Yeah, we're over 20% now

So you're good at opposing, but I have yet to see you put forth your alternative. Christie? Bush? Rubio? Unless it's one of those types, I can bet money your candidate does worse than Rand Paul in the 2016 GOP presidential primary. It's very odd to be pretending to be so politically important and relevant when you're residing in 1% land. It's also sad that Rand Paul losing the primary, and someone like Bush or Christie or whomever being nominated, will seemingly make you feel vindicated.

"We're over 20% now" sure sounds better than, uh, a dozen members here.

 

[T.hill]

If you started a thread inquring about the similarities of ron and rand, you'll find a lot of people willing to present the case that Rand is as liberty-oriented as his father.


In regard to practical governance a Rand presidency would be no different than a Ron presidency.

 

[alucard13mm]

So you're good at opposing, but I have yet to see you put forth your alternative. Christie? Bush? Rubio? Unless it's one of those types, I can bet money your candidate does worse than Rand Paul in the 2016 GOP presidential primary. It's very odd to be pretending to be so politically important and relevant when you're residing in 1% land. It's also sad that Rand Paul losing the primary, and someone like Bush or Christie or whomever being nominated, will seemingly make you feel vindicated.

"We're over 20% now" sure sounds better than, uh, a dozen members here.

Pretty much a geniune lesser of 2 evils within the GOP and within the general election. From what it sounds like, Rand is loads better than pretty much almost every Senator and better than any possible GOP candidate the establishment can put up. He is also loads better than any Democrat/Hilary.

Now, we don't know who the LP or constitutional party candidate will be... but I won't hold my breath. Do you think Gary Johnson is better than Rand? Or worse... maybe another Bob Barr-isque candidate?

I don't know anything about Constitutional Party, so I have no comment.

I bet you that after the year 2016, if an establishment candidate wins again, people will complain on the forums about how bad the post 2016 situation is and make youtube videos about our demise. For me, I don't support Rand.. we will 100% get a bad president. If I do support Rand, it is possible he is bad OR good... but at least there is a chance for him to be good. That is how I think of it.

I will donate 20.16USD five times before iowa. I will donate 20.16USD once a month afterwards, unless he loses all the early states or it is apparent he is not trying to win the nomination. Havn't decided for general elections. I can be minimally be satisfied if he wins the nominations, but lose the general. I see it as another step towards victory and an opportunity to preach to hundreds of millions of people worldwide because a lot of people watch the general debates. Lead people towards liberty. Make people lean towards freedom.

 

[CaptLouAlbano]

I'll send him the max once he announces. If he is able to win an early state, then my wife will max out to him. If he is unable to pull off a win, then that money will go to other candidates.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

Yeah, I've heard that before. A lot.
And each time, I ask for some evidence.
And then the thread dies. Some other shit-chucking happens, but never does the evidence follow.

So Rand's some kind of sleeper agent.
Great.
Glad you guys believe that.
I need a bit more than which particular set of testicles produced half his chromosomes.

The things he says and does distress me, and nobody seems to be able to itemize the good stuff he's doing.
I ordered prime rib, and you guys are telling me the bacon cheeseburger is the same thing.
It's not, and at this point I take offense to the suggestion.

Don't forget all the anecdotal evidence we have on top of what jurgs01 provided.

I've had the pleasure of asking the Pauls their opinions on it at Dr. Ron Paul's house and if he isn't a "sleeper agent", he at least has his entire family including Ron thinking he is.

Ron, whom you seem to like and trust, said Rand was 99% the same on policy. He said people are trying to drive a wedge in between him and Rand.

There were Rand's college news letters.

There is the near perfect voting record, flawed only by his Iranian sanctions votes.

What kind of proof do you want? Because it really seems like you just want him to SOUND like his father. Doesn't seem like anything else will satisfy you.

 

[ssunlimited]

I can't afford much. I will donate at least $20.16 per month since Rand announces his run for presidency. Maybe up to $50-100.

 

[fisharmor]

Itemization:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/freedomindex/profile.php?id=P000603
http://congress.freedomworks.org/legislators/rand-paul
http://www.heritageactionscorecard.com/members/member/P000603
http://www.scribd.com/doc/126485325/2012-Ratings-of-the-United-States-Congress

Thanks for this, this is something to look at.
It is a fine conservative Republican record so far.

Anti-Drone filibuster

Which anti-drone filibuster are you referring to?
I remember a carefully laid out filibuster which highlighted, at length, and quite specifically, the inappropriateness of using drones to execute US citizens on US soil without a trial.
I remember a filibuster which left open the questions of
1) executing non-US citizens on US soil with drones,
2) executing US citizens on non-US soil with drones,
3) whether or not it's ok to execute someone by drone post-trial,
4) whether it's wise to use drones to execute people at all.

Time's world most influential people 2013
Member of Senate Foreign Relations committee, Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, Homeland Security and Government Affairs, and Small Business committees

Being on a committee isn't a credential.

Class-action lawsuit against the NSA

Has this actually been filed?
Will it go any differently than Cucinelli's Obamacare suit?

Written two books, one very pointedly showing government overreach (bullying)
Worked to stop mandatory minimum sentencing.

Good. There's some more solid paleoconservativism.

Is translating the libertarian vision to social conservatives. I have personally seen social conservatives who were brainwashed by the Bush-Rove years eyes opening to the ideas of liberty.

This is every bit as anecdotal as my claim that those with reservations about Rand are politically significant.

WTF do you want?

I want my fucking prime rib.

At no point did I say that I have something against bacon cheeseburgers.

The claim I was responding to was this:
" he is much more Ron than we want people to think."

I like bacon cheeseburgers. I really do.
But a bacon cheeseburger is not prime rib.

He's an admirable paleoconservative. If his father had never forced me to ask myself some serious questions, I would undoubtedly be on the Randwagon.

Let me break this down, though...
Rand has largely put himself in the position of being the "good cop".

We have those arguments periodically here still, where someone shows up and says "Nuh-uh, some cops are good! Look, here's a cop who found a live baby in a trash pile, and he stopped to pick it up! He's a fuckin' hero!"
(This conversation actually happened here.)

Then some of us stop a moment and consider, why does that make him a hero?
What kind of fucking savage would see a live baby in a trash pile and not try to save it?
People are so brainwashed by the police cult that they will assign hero status to a cop for doing something that is not only expected of each member of the human race the entire world over (without exception!), but which would also result in ostracism - or worse - for those who fail to perform it.
And the inevitable result is it dulls us to the fact that not only is that guy not a hero, but all his buddies are actively demons.
It convinces us that the status quo is actually a good thing, despite the fact that we really have no evidence supporting that claim, and ample evidence debunking it.

So Rand has a voting record, and he's gone on record supporting some things.
Again, I honestly think this is a good thing.
But those things are, in my opinion, stopping to pick up a live baby out of a trash pile.

With one exception. I think submitting a budget that eliminates departments goes toward actually cleaning up the trash pile.

It wasn't that long ago that Rand's father told us that if something doesn't change, this is all going to end.
I believed that. I still do.
I also believe that, completely irrespective of anyone's political persuasion and considering this objectively, the changes needed are somewhat bigger than just about everything you listed.

 

[ssunlimited]

Hey, I'm confused. Is it max $2600 for all quarters for primary until the primary is over or is it $2600 per quarter? I know these fund raisers happen in quarters. I thought it was $2600 max per quarter?

 

[Christian Liberty]

Thanks for this, this is something to look at.
It is a fine conservative Republican record so far.


Which anti-drone filibuster are you referring to?
I remember a carefully laid out filibuster which highlighted, at length, and quite specifically, the inappropriateness of using drones to execute US citizens on US soil without a trial.
I remember a filibuster which left open the questions of
1) executing non-US citizens on US soil with drones,
2) executing US citizens on non-US soil with drones,
3) whether or not it's ok to execute someone by drone post-trial,
4) whether it's wise to use drones to execute people at all.


Being on a committee isn't a credential.


Has this actually been filed?
Will it go any differently than Cucinelli's Obamacare suit?


Good. There's some more solid paleoconservativism.


This is every bit as anecdotal as my claim that those with reservations about Rand are politically significant.


I want my fucking prime rib.

At no point did I say that I have something against bacon cheeseburgers.

The claim I was responding to was this:
" he is much more Ron than we want people to think."

I like bacon cheeseburgers. I really do.
But a bacon cheeseburger is not prime rib.

He's an admirable paleoconservative. If his father had never forced me to ask myself some serious questions, I would undoubtedly be on the Randwagon.

Let me break this down, though...
Rand has largely put himself in the position of being the "good cop".

We have those arguments periodically here still, where someone shows up and says "Nuh-uh, some cops are good! Look, here's a cop who found a live baby in a trash pile, and he stopped to pick it up! He's a fuckin' hero!"
(This conversation actually happened here.)

Then some of us stop a moment and consider, why does that make him a hero?
What kind of fucking savage would see a live baby in a trash pile and not try to save it?
People are so brainwashed by the police cult that they will assign hero status to a cop for doing something that is not only expected of each member of the human race the entire world over (without exception!), but which would also result in ostracism - or worse - for those who fail to perform it.
And the inevitable result is it dulls us to the fact that not only is that guy not a hero, but all his buddies are actively demons.
It convinces us that the status quo is actually a good thing, despite the fact that we really have no evidence supporting that claim, and ample evidence debunking it.

So Rand has a voting record, and he's gone on record supporting some things.
Again, I honestly think this is a good thing.
But those things are, in my opinion, stopping to pick up a live baby out of a trash pile.

With one exception. I think submitting a budget that eliminates departments goes toward actually cleaning up the trash pile.

It wasn't that long ago that Rand's father told us that if something doesn't change, this is all going to end.
I believed that. I still do.
I also believe that, completely irrespective of anyone's political persuasion and considering this objectively, the changes needed are somewhat bigger than just about everything you listed.

I agree that its not nearly enough. And while I hope Rand is more like Ron than he's letting on, I am not confident of the fact.

That said, I'd take paleoconservatism over the mess we have now in a heartbeat. If you're too much of a purist to do that, that's fine. I understand. I've gotten mad at Rand several times. But frankly, I don't want to live in a country where drones are on every street corner, cops can literally just execute people on the street without cause, where we bomb Iran and thus invite more blowback and another 9/11, with all the consequences to our freedom that would entail, etc. I'm reasonably confident that Rand Paul would not willingly make the problem WORSE, and he just might make it a little better. So I'll take him over the other options, even while realizing that he isn't Ron either.

With that said, Rand Paul is NOT the solution to our problems. An awakening is the only solution.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Yeah, we're over 20% now, and I bet we'll still be told by the end of this thread how much nobody cares what we think and we're just trying to disrupt the movement.

Well, if my monetary situation changed dramatically in the next four years... say, someone bought me a lottery ticket and I won, my vote might change

That said, I have a lot of the same questions about Rand as you do. I'm almost certainly going to vote for him if he gets to the general, which I doubt he will.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

Which anti-drone filibuster are you referring to?
I remember a carefully laid out filibuster which highlighted, at length, and quite specifically, the inappropriateness of using drones to execute US citizens on US soil without a trial.
I remember a filibuster which left open the questions of
1) executing non-US citizens on US soil with drones,
2) executing US citizens on non-US soil with drones,
3) whether or not it's ok to execute someone by drone post-trial,
4) whether it's wise to use drones to execute people at all.

What a wonderful brief expression of how myopic your thinking is. Just a beautiful example, seriously. This is proof that you are indeed obsessed with words and throw actions and results to the wind. This was a dog whistle for civil rights and antiwar activists. Perception is everything.

There was a massive swing in public opinion on all four questions you listed. All four had massive swings, look it up! But how is that possible since he only talked about a very specific instance? This is what you don't seem to understand. There are many, many layers beyond what is being said. I'm sorry that is so hard for you to understand. God speed in your pursuit of prime rib.