How exactly was "Life better in the past"?

[oyarde]

how was it better then, in anything you value?

I am a simple man. The things I value are not better , that I see . Crap like cell phones , TV's do not matter to me . Smokeless powder is good . Things I value , like electricity KWH , motor oil , gasoline, bacon have gone up . Incomes , will not , that I expect

 

[PRB]

I am a simple man. The things I value are not better , that I see . Crap like cell phones , TV's do not matter to me . Smokeless powder is good . Things I value , like electricity KWH , motor oil , gasoline, bacon have gone up . Incomes , will not , that I expect

if you don't value cellphones and TVs, you probably have no problem saving what you didnt spend on this "crap" to make up for the increase costs of things you DO buy.

 

[acptulsa]

if you don't value cellphones and TVs, you probably have no problem saving what you didnt spend on this "crap" to make up for the increase costs of things you DO buy.

Um, just out of morbid curiosity, what part of those are the things he values most that all went up is it that you're pretending not to understand?

Thirty years ago, a time many of us here remember personally, working men and women could earn a comfortable wage. The rich had more than they could spend, even if they quit their jobs and spent full time. But they didn't have thirty times what they could possibly spend. There was a middle class, and it was large and thriving. As the decade wore on, America discovered what it was to be completely decoupled from gold and completely at the Fed's mercy. It wasn't pretty. My father kept telling me he wanted to teach me the value of a dollar, but for the first time in his life he could no longer keep track of what that was, it was shrinking so fast. And the average real world working stiff mean wage has been shrinking ever since. Yes, electronics are getting cheaper and more miraculous. But you know what? There's more to life than toys.

People ate genuine steaks once in a while. And when I say people, I mean black ones, too.

Hell, cars had hip room and shoulder room. Trucks did, too, like now. But back then, so did cars. The government changed all that. Suppose I said to you, cars back then had crumple zones, overlong hoods and big trunks, and today's cars have a stronger steel cage immediately around the cockpit instead. Suppose I said, those were as safe as these, about the same weight and roomier, and could (with modern engines) still use less fuel than light trucks. Relax certain safety regulations and CAFE standards and we can ditch rollover-prone trucks for more efficient large cars.

Would you even think about it? Or would you simply curse it out of hand as 'cherry picking'? Would you argue that to regain that--to learn the lesson and repeal a bad law or two--meant we had to give up every advance civilization has made since 1970?

 

[osan]

No, I didn't say you have to take the package deal, but if you're going to tell me life in the past was overall better, rather than only better in some aspects, then you're the one who wants the package deal, not me.

Your logic fails again. "Better", being subjective, is a matter of personal view. You may prefer this world. Others prefer what was, overall. That does not imply that everything about one era was better than another.

I reject your premise that we're moving forward to more poverty and more tyranny.

Your statement once again indicates a lack of direct experience with the world as it was. There are numerically objective bases that support the fact that people were relatively wealthier in, say, 1960 than they are today. There are qualitative factors as well - more subjective, but nonetheless valid.

If you were not alive and aware of circumstances in those days, you cannot possibly understand the difference. I lived through the changes - I am a first-hand witness to the transition from what-was to what-is. I have heard more than a few people attempt to justify their view that life is better now because we have cell phones and internet and all that. If that is their criteria, it is valid.

I must, however, point out the cringing and clinging nature that likely underpins such a viewpoint. This is the worldview of minds too meek and dependent upon what is provided them through third parties, mostly mere conveniences with little if any of it essential in nature. It is not a viewpoint of one who values his inherent rights above that of the crumbs that fall to him from the tables of others. It is not the viewpoint of one whose spirit seeks its own apex in living by his own just command and supported with his natural abilities, developed skills, personal vision, and determination. Rather, it is the viewpoint of what is essentially the dependent at best, the outright slave at worst, and the serf in the middle case, the latter being essentially a slave minus any of the overhead costs to the whipmaster. It is the view point of the man who gratefully, resignedly, or fearfully accepts the station assigned him as one whose existence is qualified and bounded by the arbitrary, often capricious, and almost universally viciously enforced whim of those who presume to reign over him. It is the view of the man too timid or lazy to make his own way in life, content to be directed by others and to pay the price of what can only be characterized as his voluntary servitude through the default of unchallenging acceptance.

That is how I see such positions.

 

[ILUVRP]

Wages have not risen in proportion to cost of living.

Middle class is more or less gone.

30-40 years ago a person could leave high school and go right into a well paying factory or blue collar job. They could support a family on one income and own a home.

All that is gone.

when i went to high school we had all the normal classes , but we also had -- woodworking--welding -- electrician--roofing--plumbing--brick laying .

every year our classes built a house , sold it and used the money to pay for the sports programs . we could get a job anywhere as there was a lot of factories .

now days it doesn't take much to get a job a mcdonalds , unless you go to college and get a bs or masters degree , with the masters you could be day shift supervisor , bs degree you get night super .

things will only get worst .

 

[TomtheTinker]

How exactly was "Life better in the past"?

You didn't have to fill out paper work for every human action.

 

[fisharmor]

The only thing better today is the technology

Yeah, about that....

Since you mentioned older music, have you started a vinyl collection yet?
Not all technology is objectively "better".
Smaller, cheaper, lighter, more portable... but by the single standard we're supposed to be judging it by - how it sounds - that particular technology is inferior in its modern form.

Consider film. When was the last time a Lawrence of Arabia came out? Or an Apocalypse Now?
The technology that goes into movies is clearly superior, but by the standard we're supposed to be judging it by - whether or not it qualifies as art - modern movies don't hold up at all. It's become nothing more than an exercise in turning dollars into CGI to ejaculate into our eyes at predetermined intervals over the course of 100 minutes.
It's clearly not "better".

 

[PaulConventionWV]

No, I didn't say you have to take the package deal, but if you're going to tell me life in the past was overall better, rather than only better in some aspects, then you're the one who wants the package deal, not me.



I reject your premise that we're moving forward to more poverty and more tyranny.

Isn't that the whole reason this forum exists? When there's tyranny, there's going to be more until it is stopped. This is the whole point of Ron Paul's campaign, of the liberty movement in general. Of course, with tyranny comes a decreasing quality of life for the serfs.

 

[69360]

Maybe because they moved up, but why do you say that?




So the fact less people need to work blue collar jobs to support a family is a DOWNSIDE??

They didn't move up, they didn't have any blue collar opportunities so they are on the dole now.

 

[Cutlerzzz]

Trying to argue this with old timers would be like an eight year old telling me the new pokemon games are better than Red and Blue.

 

[Working Poor]

The food sucks now where as back "then" it was not laden with all kinds of chemicals and God only knows what.

 

[PRB]

They didn't move up, they didn't have any blue collar opportunities so they are on the dole now.

not having blue collar opportunities is BAD THING?

 

[PRB]

Your logic fails again. "Better", being subjective, is a matter of personal view. You may prefer this world. Others prefer what was, overall. That does not imply that everything about one era was better than another.
.

It doesn't need to be all, just more than less. And yes, it is subjective, which is why I am not saying anybody is wrong, I just want to hear their WHY, and express any agreements/disagreements.

 

[Zippyjuan]

The food sucks now where as back "then" it was not laden with all kinds of chemicals and God only knows what.

Yeah- it sucks that now you can find lettuce and advocados and tomatoes any time of the year. Used to be they were unavailable in winter. Food selection and availablity is higher than ever. Food costs less now too. Families used to spend one third of their income on food- today it is down to eleven percent.

 

[Cutlerzzz]

Yeah- it sucks that now you can find lettuce and advocados and tomatoes any time of the year. Used to be they were unavailable in winter. Food selection and availablity is higher than ever. Food costs less now too. Families used to spend one third of their income on food- today it is down to eleven percent.

I mean, just walk into a grocery store and look at how long their ice cream section is. There is now more than a hundred kinds of ice cream at any major grocery store, and that's just one product. The level of consumer choice is unbelievable.

 

[acptulsa]

Back to Trivial Pursuit, I see.

Fuck liberty, sound money, and the whole middle class. Because raspberry cookie dough ice cream.

It doesn't need to be all, just more than less. And yes, it is subjective, which is why I am not saying anybody is wrong, I just want to hear their WHY, and express any agreements/disagreements.

Not that you've agreed even once. Despite soliciting opinions from people who were there.

You're really not getting paid for this? 'Cause most people who know nothing about a subject, yet stubbornly maintain a strong opinion about it, are getting paid to do so. Or, at least, the sane ones are.

 

[PRB]

There are numerically objective bases that support the fact that people were relatively wealthier in, say, 1960 than they are today.

Oh really?

Is it something other than "% of salary it costs to get a gallon of gas, car, house"? while ignoring cars are more fuel efficient, more people are driving cars, more demand exists for houses, places where there's higher population density, houses cost more per square feet, oh yeah, are housing costs compared by cost per sq ft or just total?

 

[acptulsa]

Oh really?

Is it something other than "% of salary it costs to get a gallon of gas, car, house"? while ignoring cars are more fuel efficient, more people are driving cars, more demand exists for houses, places where there's higher population density, houses cost more per square feet, oh yeah, are housing costs compared by cost per sq ft or just total?

Are you sure there aren't any more nits you'd like to pick? Because some of us have asked you several questions you've yet to acknowledge, much less answer, in your zeal to cross examine osan on this particular one percent of his total testimony...

Or is trying to have an adult conversation considered hijacking in one of your threads?

 

[PRB]

Are you sure there aren't any more nits you'd like to pick?

No, I'm not sure.

Because some of us have asked you several questions you've yet to acknowledge, much less answer, in your zeal to cross examine osan on this particular one percent of his total testimony...

Point them to me again please, if I missed it.

Or is trying to have an adult conversation considered hijacking in one of your threads?

no, didn't say that.

 

[Zippyjuan]

I mean, just walk into a grocery store and look at how long their ice cream section is. There is now more than a hundred kinds of ice cream at any major grocery store, and that's just one product. The level of consumer choice is unbelievable.

And hundreds of choices in the Bread department and Produce sections. Cheeses and meats in the Deli. Available fresh all year 'round. Sure there are bad (or "less healthy") options- but also more good ones. Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing- and choice is greater than ever. At a lower percent of your income.

100 years ago you might not have had a car or telephone- two things folks today believe they can't live without.