How do we answer the pulling of support for Israel question?

[cindy25]

in a general election cutting off aid to Israel will win votes:
1) Jews are only 2% of the population, will vote for the Democrat anyway, and live mostly in New York. But Hillary will carry New York no matter who is the nominee and what he says.
2) the really hard core Christian Zionists will never vote for Hillary.
3) a balanced foreign policy with no aid to Israel could help RP carry Michigan, with its large Moslem population.

 

[sugaki]

Ugh, I'm not going to even bother with the ad hominem barrage against Christianity (ironic that Christians are supposed to be the narrow-minded ones, yet I wade through all this gunk from the other side).

I'll say flatly that I'm pro-Israel. I think Israel is God's chosen people, and that He will bless those who bless them, curse those who curse them. I'm in sort of disagreement with RP on this topic--but not in ways that most neocons are.

I think people greatly misunderstand what this underlying theology means in a practical sense. It doesn't mean condoning carte blanche Israel's actions against Lebanon, Palestinians. Where past US administrations failed is their implicit approval of Israel's more violent (and fruitless) strategies, such as launching Hellfire missiles into crowded slum neighborhoods to assassinate one (replaceable and expendable) Hamas leader. That generates indignation from the international community against the US. I find Israel's policies in frequent violation of God's commands, to love your neighbor, treat foreigners in your midst with respect (because Jews were foreigners when they were slaves in Egypt), love your enemy (Joel preaching to the Assyrians in spite of their war against Israel).

So for US to be faithful to the bible and to "bless" Israel, it's not to have a blind eye to the wrongs that Israel is committing. I think by and large the Bush admin has been doing this, and isn't exactly a stellar example of what I believe US's obligation to Israel should be. Blessing Israel could also mean telling them how NOT to deal with terrorists (that is, steamrolling over neighborhoods with armored bulldozers), so that they may deal with the situation in a more God-honoring way. And blowing up a car with Fatah fighters in a crowded street is not one of them.

The bible says to love your neighbor. I think that encompasses not only fellow US citizens, but also the international community as a whole. This is where I detract from RP's philosophy. The love is a universal doctrine, and isn't just restricted to national borders, because all are God's creation, regardless of race, gender or creed.

In practice RP's philosophy IS isolationism, because it perceives foreign nations as strictly being economic partners, not military allies. This flatly is NOT how the founding fathers operated. I mean, US allied with France in 1778 with the Treaty of Alliance--how could he of missed that? Spain sided with US as well, albeit for its own strategic purposes. So from the very inception of the nation, the founding fathers have had a dramatically different outlook on foreign policy than Ron Paul. This is where I find Ron Paul the weakest.

Not to mention, does trade go into military equipment trading? Avionics? Selling nukes? Trade inevitably brings conflict into the picture. I think RP is a bit idealistic in thinking that trade itself won't ruffle any feathers (oil, anyone?). Inevitably in the international arena, I think you have to make binding agreements in order to survive. US did that to repel the Royal Navy for the American Revolutionary War, so I hardly think it's a bad thing.

So that's my long-winded answer to the question. In short, I don't support RP's stance on Israel, lol. Nor do I support Bush's stance either, so it's a pick of the lesser evil. Plus, as somebody else said, if Israel is indeed God's people, then God is sufficient for defending Israel. And I believe in that. Israel doesn't "need" US to survive--never has, never will.

 

[pcosmar]

Israel is indeed God's people, then God is sufficient for defending Israel. And I believe in that. Israel doesn't "need" US to survive--never has, never will.

sugaki, Your bottom line IS the bottom line.
I think ( as a Christian) that our support and interference has been detrimental to Israel.

 

[sugaki]

sugaki, Your bottom line IS the bottom line.
I think ( as a Christian) that our support and interference has been detrimental to Israel.

From a theological perspective, the US wouldn't help Israel for Israel's sake (after all, if God's on Israel's side then they don't need the help). The US would help Israel for sake of reaping the blessings (and not the curse). Evangelicals want to have close ties w/ Israel so that the US wouldn't be on the brunt end of God's wrath.

But bringing up a hypothetical, if say all Islamic countries would invade Israel (like a repeat of the 1967 war), I wouldn't be opposed to the US intervening--which is a lot more black and white IMO then Israel bombing houses believed to belong to somebody from Hezbollah.

 

[Dovy]

Supporting Israel?

The issue of supporting Israel among some people surpasses all other considerations as an American citizen. This means that such people have no concept of American interests or the constitution. They buy into the idea that the main role of the United States is to serve as the source of sustenance for the Zionist state of Israel. As an Orthodox Jew I know a thing or two about this subject, and the fact is that many Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that the State of Israel has something to do with the Bible, the Torah. However, this is false. The State of Israel was established by heretics and atheists who hated the Jewish faith more than anything. They have proceeded to defame and desecrate the values of Judaism in myriad ways.

There is the tendency to ignore the fact that the State of Israel is set up to allocate rights to people based on ethnic identity, which would NEVER be tolerated by ANY Americans in our own country.

The main point, however, is that Ron Paul's position has nothing to do with Israel per se. He simply wants to stop foreign military aid and alliances (even when the US has no formal treaties with the Zionist State) among all countries. Israel falls into this category.

 

[Dovy]

Support for Israel (II)

Furthermore, the issue that holds the attention of so many people is related to what is called the Holocaust, which is a dogmatic religion that does not permit any questioning of its beliefs and tenets. Its purpose as a dogma is to guarantee the State of Israel a blank check to do whatever it wishes to the Palestinians and to make them pay for what happened to Jews in Poland (or what did not happen).

 

[Sandy]

This is an excerpt from Pastor Chuck Baldwin's most recent article, he recently did a presentation on Ron Paul to pastors who gathered in Iowa. Ron Paul spoke after Chuck Baldwin's presentation . Also, his site: http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/ You can find the full article there, is a focus on the home page of the website. Article is called: 'An Appeal to My Fellow Pastors'. Would recommend sending it to your Christian friends. Excerpt:

One thing that Pastor Hartman brought up in our meeting in Iowa was the sentiment of many Christians and pastors to defend Israel. Dr. Paul stated that he did not believe that we do Israel any favors and we actually weaken Israel by our constant meddling and intervention. I agree.

Ron Paul is not Israel's enemy. And neither is he the enemy to Christian liberty and constitutional government.

Ron Paul's non-interventionist and constitutional foreign policy approach would help, not hurt, Israel to resolve tensions with their neighbors. Remember, Israel has more nuclear missiles to defend themselves than all of the Middle East nations combined. Believe me, Israel knows how to defend itself. And know this: America's constant meddling curses Israel more than it blesses.

Also consider this: according to published reports such as this one in the Houston Chronicle http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/5223477.html , Ron Paul is receiving more donations from military personnel than any other Presidential candidate in either party. Think seriously about this. Our active duty and retired military personnel clearly endorse with their own contributions Ron Paul's non-interventionist position above all others.

 

[Thurston Howell III]

I'm pretty sure Israel can take care of itself.

 

[sugaki]

Furthermore, the issue that holds the attention of so many people is related to what is called the Holocaust, which is a dogmatic religion that does not permit any questioning of its beliefs and tenets. Its purpose as a dogma is to guarantee the State of Israel a blank check to do whatever it wishes to the Palestinians and to make them pay for what happened to Jews in Poland (or what did not happen).

Uhhh, reading between the lines, I take it you're a holocaust-denier? Wow.

 

[savonarola]

In speaking with my born-again sister, (she really likes Ron Paul) she related to me that the Israel support question is a big thing she encounters when speaking to her friends about RP. She said "they really seem to like him until it gets to the no continued support for Israel, I think that's going to be a problem for him".

I really don't know enough about the issue to offer an answer. I've looked on RPlibrary.com and found a few things. I wish he'd issue a position statement on this topic.

My meetup is working on radio ads targeting Christian stations, so these topics are in the forefront of what we're trying to understand right now.

p.s. please donate to our chip-in if you think our radio ads for Christians is a good idea! Thanks! http://foxvalleywisconsin.chipin.co...ampaignoperation-wake-up-wisconsin-christians

I am a former "Born Againer." I'm not a former Christian, but I've come to believe the modern movement is based on mass hysteria and emotionalism. This isn't to say all, or even most, "born again" christians aren't genuine. They are, but since emotion dominates the philosophy, they are easily swayed into ridiculous causes.

Personally, I discuss doctrine. I start with the "rapture" and the parable of the fig tree, and question the veracity of modern interpretation. You will not change their views on Israel until you correct their doctrine.

You could also point out that Paul's administration would not be able to destroy everything, in terms of foreign aid. Understandably, Israel's support might be one of the last to go. Point out that we also support their enemies, so ending support to them will cause a net benefit to Israel. Lew Rockwell had an excellent article on that.

You may also point out that we handicap Israel in her own war. Let Israel fight her wars. She is quite capable. Whether we agree with her or not, we can agree that we ought not force others to support her.

Lastly, point out that Paul will do his best to "legalize" individual support. If you want to support Israel, go right ahead. Just don't do it on behalf of the citizens of the united States of America.

 

[Dovy]

Holocaust "Denier"?

Uhhh, reading between the lines, I take it you're a holocaust-denier? Wow.

It starts with "Holocaust Denial," then continues on to "9/11 Denial," and "Global Warming Denial,"......Each person has the right and obligation to analyze information and weigh arguments and evidence in historical analysis. No one should be shut up or imprisoned by the Thought Police for his/her opinions. That's Stalag 13, not America. Last time I checked my Torah and Jewish laws did not indicate that I did or did not have to accept every last little detail of what the Holocaust Temple tells us to believe. As a Jew I am more than happy to find out that 6 million people weren't killed! Indeed, it's an impossibility anyway. And yes, the pro-Israel forces DO hang WW2 over everyone's heads like a sword of Damocles.

"Of course we have a right to starve out the Palestinians (who caused 9/11). After all, we suffered in WW2, so the Arabs have to pay!" Yuck!!!!

 

[truthbetold]

Foreing Aid for Israel Against Scripture

A Word For Christians and lovers of Zion.
The G-d of Host tells us that Israel will never again disappear from the face of the earth after the return of Exile to land of Israel. And also we are plainly told by the prophets that making alliances for protection rather than trusting G-d was the reason for the fall of Israel and “The Day the Towers Fell.” (Is 30:35)
"…that take counsel, but not of Me; and that make alliances, but AGAINST MY WILL…"" Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your SHAME, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt YOUR HUMILIATION."

"Their strength is to SIT STILL." And trust in the Lord

Isaiah 30 Clearly says that the reason for the 2,000 year exile was not trusting G-d and paying Egypt for protection. The U.S. has been paying Egypt for peace to the tune of 63 billion dollars to date. This angers G-d today just as it did 2,000 years ago.

Right action cannot arise out falsity. A SAD commentary on Christian society endorsing a unjust war because of their “support of Israel” that is in direct violation of scripture and the Just War Principle of Saint Augustine.
Support Israel with Honor. If the govt stops taking your money and giving it to Egypt, Pakistan ect..that money through the Free Market of IDEAS bring further prosperity and PEACE in Israel.

America Gives Aid to Countries that Persecute Christians and Even Martyrs Christians. The Idea of the US supporting a dictator is treasonous.

A COUNTRY SELLING IT'S CITIZENS AND THEIR CHILDREN INTO DEBT SLAVERY TO TAKE THAT MONEY AND SUPPORT A DICTATOR!! WHAT CHRISTIAN CAN DEFEND THIS?? What Evils are perpetrated on the minds of men in the name of the Lord? Pharasees..

ANYONE WHO CLAIMS TO BE A FOLLOWER OF THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST OR OF THE LAW OF MOSES AND JEWISH PRINCIPLES IS 1) SERIOUSLY SELF DELUDED, THEY HAVE INVESTED THEIR EGO IN SUPPORT OF THE WAR AND CANNOT DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR RUSH TO BE "PATRIOTIC". It would mean DEATH of their Ego. 2) THEY ARE A FOJINO ! FOLLOWER OF JESUS IN NAME ONLY! 3) NAIVE AND IGNORANT, BRAINWASHED, MENTALLY ENSLAVED TO BLIND ADHERANCE TO WHAT OTHERS HAVE TOLD THEM. Conversion is possible but could be cathartic for them. Litterally like a DEAth emotionally. This is why they fight it so hard and are in attack mode now! Ego Enslaves the Mind! Jesus will Free your mind.

“IF YOU GIVE A PHROPHET A GLASS OF WATER YOU SHARE IN HIS REWARD.”

SUPPORT OF ANY OTHER CANDIDATE OTHER THAN RON PAUL FOR THOSE WHO SUPPORT ISRAEL BECAUSE OF RELION THEN LOGICALLY WOULD BE A SIN, wouldn't it??

 

[truthbetold]

A Ron Paul Presidency is Good for Israel and Jewish People Worldwide.

Dr. Ron Paul has a significant following among Jewish voters, and this group exists to explain this support of those who have risen above the fear spewed by other candidates to see the truth.

Dr. Paul is the only choice for Jews, Zionist, and Christians who respect the rule of law, restricted Executive powers, separation of powers, checks and balances, the Declaration of Independence, and the U.S. Constitution.

Ron Paul is the only choice for Jews and Christians who wish to vote with integrity and who love Zion.
Anti-Semitism has skyrocketed! According to a 2004 study by the Christian Science Monitor by the Anti-Defamation League.

We believe that many well-intentioned organizations, such as the ADL and AIPAC, fuel negative perceptions about Jews by lobbying the U.S. government to support Israel and by divesting U.S. taxpayer dollars to Israel without consent of American taxpayers. Israel would exist as a vibrant nation without U.S. funding.
The U.S. Foreign Policy gives much more money in military and financial aid to dictators and sworn enemies of Israel.

Ron Paul is good for Israel and Good for Jews.

JEWS4RONPAUL.ORG

 

[FreeTraveler]

Say this:
If the US also cancels its military aid for various Arab states such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt and removes its presence of troops in the region and stops threatening the nations in the region with war, then the whole situation in the Middle East will become less tense and thus actually more secure for Israel.

+1

Also, add up the dollars we send to the various Arab states, and you'll find we send them more in total than we send to Israel. Stopping ALL these programs will mean a net improvement for Israel, and free them from US political involvement in what should be their own internal decisions.

 

[truthbetold]

It Is Immoral To Sell Our Kids As Debt Slaves To Give The Money Away To Anyone.
We Borrowing 3 Billion A Day, Each Child Is Born Deep In Debt And People Want To Borrow More And Give To Israel.

Any Christian who can't see ~ It Is Immoral needs The stupid slapped out of them..

 

[nexus7]

You tell them that Israel has over 100 ballistic nukes and that Israel can take care of themselves. You also explain that it's congress who will appropriate money anyway. So with AIPAC being the largest lobby in D.C. they will make sure that the sellouts in congress fund Israel until we're broke anyway.

It's time we take care of our own country and our own people for once and stop being the worlds policeman.

If Americans and your friends want to donate money to Israel then let them donate there hard earned money. No one else should be forced or pressured to do that, however.

We need to get away from being moralistic wilsonians and FDR fanboys. It's got us into way too many wars already.

In speaking with my born-again sister, (she really likes Ron Paul) she related to me that the Israel support question is a big thing she encounters when speaking to her friends about RP. She said "they really seem to like him until it gets to the no continued support for Israel, I think that's going to be a problem for him".

I really don't know enough about the issue to offer an answer. I've looked on RPlibrary.com and found a few things. I wish he'd issue a position statement on this topic.

My meetup is working on radio ads targeting Christian stations, so these topics are in the forefront of what we're trying to understand right now.

p.s. please donate to our chip-in if you think our radio ads for Christians is a good idea! Thanks! http://foxvalleywisconsin.chipin.co...ampaignoperation-wake-up-wisconsin-christians

 

[foofighter20x]

he is pulling support from everyone.

Exactly. It's a Zero-Sum game.

We aren't pulling support from Israel alone, but also from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc... Hell, from EVERYONE!

Because we send them all this foreign aid, they use they money they save on weapons and their war operations.

Take that support away from them both, and if they want to keep fighting then they'll have to find a way to do it on their own.



If your friends want to take the tax money they save by this cut in our government spending and send it off to Israel themselves, they are free to do so.

 

[noztnac]

Let Israel handle its own affairs

The argument these people are using is "Give me money or I won't be friends with you."

What have we gotten by sticking our nose in the Israeli- Arab conflict?

Answer: 9/11


This issue may lose a few supporters but it gains twice as many who are sick of us meddling where we shouldn't with money we can't afford to spend.

Free Trade with all- No entangling alliances.

 

[Sandra]

If God finds Israel viable and acceptable then God will take care of Israel, if not then it's God's will. How perfectly boastful for anyone to conceive that the protection from America = protection fron God. Unless America sees itself as God.

 

[Dovy]

Support for Israel

The support for Israel is like Mom and Apple Pie in the US because of the sheer pressure of the pro-Israel lobby, which is unlike any other interest group. It is only a matter of time that Ron Paul's overall opposition to foreign aid (INCLUDING Israel) will classify him as an ANTI-SEMITE. He must be prepared for this. I know about these things, I am Jewish myself and watch these things closely.