How do we answer the pulling of support for Israel question?

deedles

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In speaking with my born-again sister, (she really likes Ron Paul) she related to me that the Israel support question is a big thing she encounters when speaking to her friends about RP. She said "they really seem to like him until it gets to the no continued support for Israel, I think that's going to be a problem for him".

I really don't know enough about the issue to offer an answer. I've looked on RPlibrary.com and found a few things. I wish he'd issue a position statement on this topic.

My meetup is working on radio ads targeting Christian stations, so these topics are in the forefront of what we're trying to understand right now.

p.s. please donate to our chip-in if you think our radio ads for Christians is a good idea! Thanks! http://foxvalleywisconsin.chipin.co...ampaignoperation-wake-up-wisconsin-christians
 
i'm not certain what the "christians" think Israel needs our aid for anyway.
correct me if i'm wrong, but are they not a fairly wealthy/prosperous nation?

and the US government doesn't actually have any money, we borrow it...

so why should we borrow money from china, against our childrens' futures,
to pay for israel. let israel borrow the money themselves, cut out the middleman.
 
Yeah, this is a bigger issue than I thought it was. My jewish friend is a Hillary supporter, and he's really adamant that we should stop Iran from getting a nuke. I tell him this is going to become a pre-emptive strike, but he doesn't believe that. So yes, I wish RP had an articulated and accessible stance on Israel specifically and not just the usual humble foreign policy philosophy.
 
Commerce with all nations, entangling alliances with none! Israel has 200-300 nuclear missles and they can take care of themselves! We need a new foreign policy that says we ought to mind our own business, bring our troops home, defend our borders! Who here thinks that Israel couldn't blow Iran out of the water?
 
Well find some of Dr. Paul's writings on the subject.

It is his contention that removing aid from Israel, was well as all the Muslim nations (US just gave billions to the Saudis), that Israel would be safer.

Israel would:

1)Not be restricted by us when it thought it needed to defend itself
2)Be in a better position to negotiate permanent treaties with Syria and Iran.

Leaving just the Palestinian issue as the last remaining "mega-problem" to deal with. Something we can really not help with since it does not concern us much at all.


Also note that Dr. Paul supported Israel's bombing of Saddam's nuke facility in the early 80s. RR condemned it. UN condemned it. This proves he does not believe Israel should just sit there and allow its enemies to attack and not retaliate.
 
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No Favorites

Ron Paul will treat all foreign nations equally. He will not favor any particular nation over another. When you start to build entangling alliances, you just end up with even more enemies.

Ron Paul will deal with Israel on an equal basis with Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran or any other nation in the world.

Israel can take care of itself.
 
The fact that he won't support Israel is the main reason I am supporting him. So as with everything it goes both ways. Why should we be giving them taxpayer money?? To the tune of 6 billion a year. Answer that please, but please don't give me any religious nonsense. I personally don't care about the religious right position. That's why we are in this mess and in this shameful war.
 
Say; Israel has 300 nuclear bombs, and is a rich country. Israel can deter a nuclear threat, just as the US did against Russia. Or perhaps you are not capable of comprehending this fact.

Tuff Love.
 
There are Israelis who believe like this guy:
http://israelilibertarian.blogspot.com/2007/10/questions-for-republican-jewish.html

Sunday, October 21, 2007
Questions for The Republican Jewish Coalition
Questions for the Republican Jewish Coalition

Recently, there was a large hoopla in the libertarian areas of the political Internet about the Republican Jewish Coalition. The Coalition – so did the Internet have it – refused to receive Ron Paul at their “Victory 2008 Republican Jewish Coalition Candidates Forum”. According to a variety of sources, Ron Paul was not allowed to get on the forums because he was 'not seen as a top tier contender' and 'opposed aid to Israel'. Given that the Internet is plagued with the kind of folks that'll blame 'the Israeli lobby' for global warming if you let them loose, I was doubtful.

But given that the editors of http://capitalism.co.il are very interested in the Ron Paul Revolution, I went out and called the RJC myself to verify. RJC's very kind press secretary (whose surname I was, unfortunately, not able to write down) confirmed to me that this was indeed true: Ron Paul was not invited because he was considered a 'long-shot candidate' and because he 'votes against aid to Israel' and 'criticizes the Israeli lobby'.

I will not discuss the first of these statements – the RJC has invited Huckabee, who polls consistently behind Ron Paul in both straw polls and scientific Gallup and Harris polls, and then refused to replace him with Ron Paul when Huckabee refused to arrive at the Candidates Forum. It is clear to me that the main reason for Ron Paul not being invited is the difference in policy between him and the RJC.

Is Ron Paul an enemy of Israel? He clearly isn't. He supported Israel's action against the Osirak reactor when practically everybody – including the Reagan Administration – condemned Israel. He has steadfastly refused to support congressional condemnation of Israel, or military aid to nations like Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

What seems to be the core of the argument? The military aid to Israel. The 2.25 billion dollars per year of funding that Israel receives. For those not in the know, this aid comes in the form of funds that must be spent on American equipment and services – essentially a subsidy for U.S. companies. As such, it is a subsidy program for both Israel's government and the United States' military-industrial complex.

And yet, is this program necessary for Israel's survival, or even beneficial for its well-being? Certainly not according to the Jerusalem Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies, who state outright: “Foreign aid is the greatest obstacle to economic freedom in Israel.” Certainly not according to Binyamin Netanyahu, who, during his tenure as Prime Minister, hinted quite broadly that Israel would be better off without foreign aid.

Foreign aid does not only destroy Israel's indigenous military industries – even now, production of army shoes, Tavor assault rifles, and other items have been shifted in part or in whole across the Atlantic to qualify for the American funds – but it has a more insidious effect. It acts as a crutch for a military bureacracy that is huge, inept, and corrupt.

Not unlike Third World officials who feel they don't need to modernize their economy because the West will keep pumping in aid and money, Israeli Ministry of Defense officials believe that no matter how bad their own screw-ups are, they are safe – as long as they can fall back on American money and weapons.

As a result, the Israeli MoD is capable of immense amounts of waste – wasting, in fact, more Israeli taxpayer money then it receives in aid from America. When I spoke to Knesset Member Yossi Beilin, he told me that the Knesset members are not even allowed to read most of the military budget before passing it. This allows for truly unprecedented amounts of waste.[2]

There is no place here to speak about army units deploying more vehicles then they have personnel[1], army units purchasing brand new armored personnel carriers and allowing them to rust away on the lawn unused until they are beyond repair. Let us just mention that an IDF officer retiring at the rank of major 33 receives $100,000 in benefits, that the amount of generals in the Israeli army rises 80% every ten years. Israel still practices the draft, which recruits thousands of soldiers the country doesn't need for any sensible military use. Ehud Barak, the Minister of Defense, claims 75% of the nation's non-combat soldiers serve no national defense purpose. The hidden economical costs are estimated to be $15,000 per draftee.

And here's the punchline: the budget for the civilian MoD bureaucracy (not the army) comes up to half the sum of US aid to Israel on its own (4-5 billion NIS). Further, according to the Ministry of Defense, only 20% of the military budget funds actual fighting and combat support units. 80% is the cost of bureacracy and rear-echelon units. That comes out to over ten billion dollars – over FOUR TIMES the size of US aid to Israel.

I would understand support for this sort of 'aid' among the American Democrats – they are known to believe that throwing money at problems solves them. But those are Republicans we're talking about here. And thus I have a few questions for any RJC members who happen to be reading this:

You people are smart enough to realize that welfare to African countries doesn't help them develop. Why do you think welfare to Israel is going to have any different effect? You people are smart enough to oppose subsidies for an abortion clinic in Omaha or a farm in Texas. Why are you willing to throw America's money at a government institution thousands of miles away? Why do you insist throwing money at people who let billions of dollars of their own money go to waste pointlessly? Maybe, just maybe, if Israel was deprived of the American government teat, it would use it's own taxpayer money with more efficiency.

Most importantly, why are you so quick to assume that a person who opposes this welfare program is not a candidate whose opinions bears listening to, if not on this one issue, then on others? Does disagreement on this one point make a candidate unlegitimate to you, even though he agrees with the Republican Jewish Coalition on so many others?

Boris Karpa is a libertarian columnist and professional translator in Ashdod, Israel.
He can be contacted at [email protected]
 
Ron said that we (The US) actually hinder Israel in many ways, especially in trying to establish peace with Syria.
 
I did send the IsraeliLibertarian article to my sister and asked her to pass it on.

The crux of the matter is that Christians believe that the Israelites are God's chosen people and if we pull our support from them, God's blessing to us is gone. I keep trying to tell her that our $$ isn't helping God's chosen people at all, but rather lining the pockets of the corrupt Israeli leaders and causing more trouble around the world.

I'm telling you guys... when all else fails, they are going to pull this issue out of the woodwork and inflame the Christians with it.

As an aside, I don't get how anyone who thought America HAD God's blessing once could still think so! After all the rotten-ness and evil that our governement has perpetrated against peoples around the world, and the masses of American citizens have turned a blind eye to it all?

Maybe I should link her to the stories about the Sephartic (sp?) Jewish children that were irradiated courtesy of America and Israel?
 
This is a very difficult subject and quite controversial. One needs to be careful when discussing this matter because one politically incorrect statement and you can be labeled as a racist, anti-Semite, or Islamic sympathizer.

I have to honestly say that the reason I am supporting Dr. Paul is because of his neutrality toward other countries especially Israel. Not because of Israel per se but because of AIPAC and other powerful lobby groups that support it.

I saw a documentary last past May that completely changed my life forever. I cried for 3 weeks after watching it(seriously). But I think it changed me for the better making me more aware.

If you want to watch it, here it is below. WARNING: this could be emotionally difficult:

http://www.vpro.nl/programma/tegenlicht/afleveringen/34338524/

Click opslaan to play it.

Keep in mind I am Hispanic and most people that I am close to are Jewish.
 
I did send the IsraeliLibertarian article to my sister and asked her to pass it on.

The crux of the matter is that Christians believe that the Israelites are God's chosen people and if we pull our support from them, God's blessing to us is gone. I keep trying to tell her that our $$ isn't helping God's chosen people at all, but rather lining the pockets of the corrupt Israeli leaders and causing more trouble around the world.

I'm telling you guys... when all else fails, they are going to pull this issue out of the woodwork and inflame the Christians with it.

As an aside, I don't get how anyone who thought America HAD God's blessing once could still think so! After all the rotten-ness and evil that our governement has perpetrated against peoples around the world, and the masses of American citizens have turned a blind eye to it all?

Maybe I should link her to the stories about the Sephartic (sp?) Jewish children that were irradiated courtesy of America and Israel?

Deedles,

Forget about it. The religious right is not going to win this election. If they are not able to think for themselves it is already lost. Real Christians won't be inflamed, only the brainwashed ones will and they don't matter at this point. It is the rest of us now.
 
I could argue theologically why you absolutely shouldn't support the anti-Christ state of Israel.
 
They will not 'get it' Literatim. But go for it if you so desire.
 
We're hoping to find real Christians that are just uninformed. They are out there. When I called the local Christian radio station to inquire about rates for ads, the marketing director shouted "YES! HALLELUJAH I LOVE RON PAUL!" He had seen Freedom to Fascism and that started to open his eyes. He told me 'these people are interested and they vote, they are just so misinformed'. For every 10 that are Foxnews'd to the hilt, there has to be one that can be reached.... and then who will reach others... and others... and others...
 
I think you are fighting a losing battle. When a group of people think they are special, or the "chosen ones," they believe they are better than everyone else, even though they may not admit it. It is just another form of bigotry. I am seeing some biblical parallels here. Perhaps you should not cast your pearls before swine, but rather talk to the "gentiles" who will probably be more receptive. lol
 
Our blanket support of Israel is a little hard to understand when one remembers their bombing of the USS Liberty which killed 34 Americans.

It becomes harder to understand when one compares that to the Gulf of Tonkin incident, which gave LBJ an opportunity to begin the Vietnam War.
 
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