"How Could This Happen in America?" - The "left" perhaps is finally starting to "get it".

[ryanmkeisling]

I could launch into a multi-paragraph rant but instead will just say this: History is cyclical. Always has been, always will be. If people in this country studied just the last five hundred years with as much fervor as they "study" their favorite sports team, our troubles would be over very quickly.

+rep.

 

[Anti Federalist]

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[CUnknown]

Maybe the recent police brutality will also make a lot of leftists think again about whether they want only the police and military to have combat-grade firearms.

Then again, maybe not. I've long been suspicious that most leftist types, particularly those inclined toward participation in protests like "Occupy Wall Street," are masochists on some level. Or maybe they hold the extremely naive view that all people -- even the government's thug enforcers -- are ultimately good and amenable to persuasion, much like Darth Vader had some goodness hidden deep down within him that only needed the near-death of Luke Skywalker to be brought out. How else can we explain the way those protesters just let the pigs gas them and beat them senseless? And it never ceases to amaze me how some people think puling chants of "shame on you!" can be an effective deterrent to police savagery.

The police are an occupying army. The only meaningful differences between them and the US military proper are the uniforms and the direction in which their guns are pointed (i.e., at citizens or foreigners, inward or outward). Also, the only two things the Evil Empire understands are force and money. So, if it's desired to impose change without resorting to armed conflict, then some sort of economic pressures will have to be imposed via boycotts or other means. Merely protesting will NOT work.

I agree with you in some respects, but resorting to force at this stage is a horrible idea. It will only give the police a justification for their actions and many people will side emotionally with the police, thinking the violent protestors deserved it. As it is now, most people side with the protestors.

For example, imagine if the police didn't have tear gas and instead just shot protestors. The fallout from that would be enormous, and like the Boston Massacre, it would solidify the country's desire for real change. The worst thing the police could do would be to rachet up the violence, and I think they have already gone too far, out of fear. Overplayed their hand. The best thing for the protestors to do is keep at it and not back down or switch tactics.

What they're doing really does have the potential to change things. The police and the Feds agree, or else they wouldn't be so quick to violently repress when that kind of strategy is probably going to do more harm than good in the long run.

I wish the protestors understood economics and monetary theory a little better, heh, but they really are patriots for getting out in the street like they are, and we should support them 100%.

 

[GuerrillaXXI]

I agree with you in some respects, but resorting to force at this stage is a horrible idea. It will only give the police a justification for their actions and many people will side emotionally with the police, thinking the violent protestors deserved it. As it is now, most people side with the protestors.

The pigs don't need any justification for their violence. They simply beat and gas people whenever they feel like doing so. They also use violence at their whim across the country in contexts other than protests.

I'm not comfortable with the idea that people should simply allow themselves to be used as doormats and punching bags for the sake of sending a message. (If I or any of my loved ones were treated that way, I'd be much more than simply uncomfortable; I'd seek revenge, regardless of the cost to myself.)

Moreover, I'm not convinced that most people side with the protesters, though I admit to not having seen the relevant polls. I do know that most Americans suffer from Stockholm syndrome and have been conditioned to genuflect before any thug who wears a badge. Any police misconduct or brutality is dismissed by these people as "a few bad apples" when in fact the entire law enforcement community is rotten to the core. I doubt this mistakenly positive view of the police will change as long as the police limit their senseless brutality to a minority of the population.

Nevertheless, I'm not saying that it's necessarily time for the shooting to begin. As I said, if people want to avoid that, then IMO they need to find a way to hurt the system economically. Boycotts of businesses that deal with the police and others responsible for the growing police state would obviously be in order. No doubt there are other things that could be done, though I honestly haven't thought about it too much.

For example, imagine if the police didn't have tear gas and instead just shot protestors. The fallout from that would be enormous, and like the Boston Massacre, it would solidify the country's desire for real change. The worst thing the police could do would be to rachet up the violence, and I think they have already gone too far, out of fear. Overplayed their hand. The best thing for the protestors to do is keep at it and not back down or switch tactics.

No doubt police shootings of protesters would cross the line. If that happened and Americans didn't start killing cops in retaliation, then we would all deserve to be enslaved or shot for our cowardice. America's founders didn't win their freedom by allowing the British to use them for target practice.

What they're doing really does have the potential to change things. The police and the Feds agree, or else they wouldn't be so quick to violently repress when that kind of strategy is probably going to do more harm than good in the long run.

Sadly, I don't think it will change a thing. The pigs are violently repressing the protesters not because they fear them or their message, but simply because the type of asshole who's attracted to law enforcement these days finds it fun to beat up on "hippie scum" or anyone else they consider beneath themselves. It's nothing more than a bunch of sadists getting to indulge their fetish IMO.

I wish the protestors understood economics and monetary theory a little better, heh, but they really are patriots for getting out in the street like they are, and we should support them 100%.

I do support them just for making a stink, although in truth there are a lot of things I'd much rather see people protesting about (such as a surveillance state that's growing far out of hand).

 

[Anti Federalist]

Salon mag on the Military/Police state.

http://mobile.slate.com/articles/ne...military_to_arrest_and_detain_americans_.html

When Salon is talking about Posse Comitatus, you know shit is getting real.

There may be no good outcome here. It could be an unholy victory for both the prospect of unbridled executive power and for the collapse of any meaningful separation between domestic law enforcement and military authority. The law manages to expand the role of the military in domestic terror prosecutions and also limit the authority of the civilian justice system to thwart terrorism. These were legal principles to which even the Bush administration said they adhered.

As Adam Serwer explains: This new legislation will “overturn a precedent that was followed almost without exception by the Bush administration: Domestic terrorism arrests are the province of law enforcement, not the military.” Raha Wala of Human Rights First notes that “authorizing the military to detain terror suspects apprehended within the United States clearly goes against the spirit of the Posse Comitatus Act, a law that has prevented the military from taking on domestic law enforcement functions since the Civil War.” If you think the blurring of domestic policing and military authority is an Orwellian fantasy, you may want to consider the treatment of Occupy Wall Street protestors in recent weeks, or Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s claim that “I have my own army in the NYPD, which is the seventh biggest army in the world.”