How can one be a Christian and support the state?

[Met Income]

My contention is that it is contradictory to follow the Christian faith of love and non-violence and also support the monopoly of violence that is the State. I am no theologian however I realize that while the Old Testament contains lots of God-sponsored violence, the New Testament did not document Jesus being violent to anyone (as far as I can recall).

In addition, it's my perception that Christians should submit to God as the ultimate authority, not to a State that is run by men (who are born with original sin). So how do we reconcile the two philosophies? Thanks in advance!

 

[dannno]

I don't think you can, Satan is in charge of governments (although individuals within government may be inspired by God, as the Constitution was divinely inspired)

But ultimately, Satan still controls the government that the Constitution inspired. It's like the Constitution was put in place to restrain Satan.

This falls in line with LDS Church belief that in the pre-existence, Satan wanted to force mankind to follow God's laws so that everybody could get into heaven. Jesus advocated that man have free choice to make his own decisions, and this is the plan that was adopted.

If Jesus believed in giving man free choice, and we are supposed to be more like Jesus, then it only follows that we hold steadfast to the position of individual liberty.

 

[FunkBuddha]

Have you read this? It's one of the most beautiful pieces of anarchist literature I've ever read. It's a letter from Leo Tolstoy to a Hindu discussing the state and it's violence.

 

[Pennsylvania]

My contention is that it is contradictory to follow the Christian faith of love and non-violence and also support the monopoly of violence that is the State.

While this may be the case. It would also be contradictory for them not to support the state, based on Romans 13, the details of which don't need to be rehashed here, as it has been rehashed many times over, but the discussion of which is worth doing a search for.

 

[Todd]

While this may be the case. It would also be contradictory for them not to support the state, based on Romans 13, the details of which don't need to be rehashed here, as it has been rehashed many times over, but the discussion of which is worth doing a search for.

I like this take. http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=140

 

[Dr.3D]

Snip~ I am no theologian however I realize that while the Old Testament contains lots of God-sponsored violence, the New Testament did not document Jesus being violent to anyone (as far as I can recall).
~Snip

Well, there is documentation of Jesus being violent to some extent.
Please take note of the following chapters and verses:

Matthew 21:12-13
Mark 11:15-18

And especially this...
John 2:14-16

I see no problem with supporting a state that supports God. When the state does not support God, then it should not be supported. This concept is also mentioned in Romans 13.

 

[Vegetarianist]

(The comp I'm on is slow, so I'm not in the mood to check other translations and such.)
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rom/13.html

Romans 13 seems to say that all leaders are picked by god. "For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." Key words, "that be"

 

[TortoiseDream]

My contention is that it is contradictory to follow the Christian faith of love and non-violence and also support the monopoly of violence that is the State. I am no theologian however I realize that while the Old Testament contains lots of God-sponsored violence, the New Testament did not document Jesus being violent to anyone (as far as I can recall).

In addition, it's my perception that Christians should submit to God as the ultimate authority, not to a State that is run by men (who are born with original sin). So how do we reconcile the two philosophies? Thanks in advance!

Excellent observation. I agree.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

(The comp I'm on is slow, so I'm not in the mood to check other translations and such.)
[url]http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rom/13.html[/URL]

Romans 13 seems to say that all leaders are picked by god. "For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." Key words, "that be"

This is an incomplete analysis of Romans 13. The best one I've seen thus far is Chuck Baldwin's-here.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Have you read this? It's one of the most beautiful pieces of anarchist literature I've ever read. It's a letter from Leo Tolstoy to a Hindu discussing the state and it's violence.

Thnx. Tolstoy is one of my fave Christian philosophers.

 

[stilltrying]

One thing that one must notice is the alteration by the NIV from the KJV. Why the wording change? The new international version, why do we need a new one and one that is internationalized? Romans 13 from NIV is actually quite scary of a change fom KJV.

 

[TortoiseDream]

Have you read this? It's one of the most beautiful pieces of anarchist literature I've ever read. It's a letter from Leo Tolstoy to a Hindu discussing the state and it's violence.

I second this. This letter in its entirety is going on my wall, it almost brought a tear to my eye.

 

[Met Income]

Well, there is documentation of Jesus being violent to some extent.
Please take note of the following chapters and verses:

Matthew 21:12-13
Mark 11:15-18

And especially this...
John 2:14-16

I see no problem with supporting a state that supports God. When the state does not support God, then it should not be supported. This concept is also mentioned in Romans 13.

Why should there be a state that supports God?

 

[UnReconstructed]

It is impossible to support the state and be a Christian unless you enjoy contradiction.

I have said before, I can understand an anarchist not being a Christian but I cannot understand a Christian not being an anarchist.

Or non statist - whatever. People get bent up on words but anything other than anarchist and you will spend at least 20 minutes explaining how you don't believe in collective governance but are not an anarchist.

 

[Todd]

It is impossible to support the state and be a Christian unless you enjoy contradiction.

I have said before, I can understand an anarchist not being a Christian but I cannot understand a Christian not being an anarchist.

Or non statist - whatever. People get bent up on words but anything other than anarchist and you will spend at least 20 minutes explaining how you don't believe in collective governance but are not an anarchist.

Are you a Christian?

 

[UnReconstructed]

I am

 

[Todd]

I am

OK...
I just see so many Christians on both sides of the issues that come to different conclusions reading the same scripture. One may worship the government because the believe it is a benevolent entity, while others see it as completely incongruent with Biblical teaching.

A good friend of mine is a pastor. However, he is for affirmative action and the welfare state BECAUSE he believes it is "Christ like" to take care of the poor and disadvantaged. He also votes Liberal Democrat or Nader most of the time.

It's always been very confusing to me.
I'm going through a sort of Christian "Sea Change" and I'm questioning a whole lot of what it means. It's kinda shaken my faith and it's things like what you stated above that make me question why so many in the "faith" can have it so wrong....meaning that they worship the government, when it may be completely out of step with real Christianity

 

[tremendoustie]

OK...
I just see so many Christians on both sides of the issues that come to different conclusions reading the same scripture. One may worship the government because the believe it is a benevolent entity, while others see it as completely incongruent with Biblical teaching.

A good friend of mine is a pastor. However, he is for affirmative action and the welfare state BECAUSE he believes it is "Christ like" to take care of the poor and disadvantaged. He also votes Liberal Democrat or Nader most of the time.

It's always been very confusing to me.
I'm going through a sort of Christian "Sea Change" and I'm questioning a whole lot of what it means. It's kinda shaken my faith and it's things like what you stated above that make me question why so many in the "faith" can have it so wrong....meaning that they worship the government, when it may be completely out of step with real Christianity

I think it is contradictory to Christianity to support the state, but I don't think that if one supports the state one cannot be a Christian. All of us are imperfect in our understanding and practice of Christ's will and teaching.

The fact that a significant number of gradeschoolers get their sums wrong does not disprove mathematics -- nor does it mean that those students should give up on studying and learning.

 

[UnReconstructed]

I certainly wasn't trying to say that you cannot be a Christian and support the state. I am a Christian and I was in the Army for 8 years. Not all people are on the same level concerning faith in Christ or in belief of what liberty is.

Concerning your pastor friend, I too, believe that it is Christ like to help the poor and the disadvantaged but affirmative action helps neither. Government programs such as these hurt way more than they help. Using government is also not what Christ advocated nor what He used.

 

[Deborah K]

It is impossible to support the state and be a Christian unless you enjoy contradiction.

I have said before, I can understand an anarchist not being a Christian but I cannot understand a Christian not being an anarchist.

Or non statist - whatever. People get bent up on words but anything other than anarchist and you will spend at least 20 minutes explaining how you don't believe in collective governance but are not an anarchist.

Do you consider Constitutionalists to be statists?