How can International Supporters of Ron Paul who ARENT US Citizens legally contribute

[ashevillejerry]

What if someone outside the U.S. opened up a U.S. bank account, like through HSBC, then gave money through that account's credit card? The recipient of the money in the U.S. would have no way of knowing that the money came from outside the U.S.

Giving money in somebody else's name is prohibited. Helping foreign national to do so is a criminal offense.

Update: New thread here.

 

[liam]

Help!!!

I have scanned a few of the messages here and am not sure what the final answer is. However it strikes me that if a Ron Paul supporter puts something up for sale which has an indeterminate value i.e. something autographed by a celebrity, such as the guy who thought of the 5th November or built the website, then we as europeans can legally bid for such an item as can anyone else in the world! We have bought in competition with the world and what you do with the proceeds is up to you! We have no guarantee what you will do with the proceeds. Tonight I hope to buy the liberty dollars one supporter is selling and I will make a sensible bid as I want one, he says he will donate the proceeds but I have no guarantee!!

So how can this possibly be illegal, he sells something and will not know who the final bid is from, and we don't know actually know what will be done with the proceeds.

?????

 

[ashevillejerry]

What do you reasonably expect?

So how can this possibly be illegal, he sells something and will not know who the final bid is from, and we don't know actually know what will be done with the proceeds.

?????

Expectation is the key factor, not what you are absolutely guaranteed.

Again, I repeat, I am sure that people will find ways to channel money into express advocacy of the election of Ron Paul that violates the regs and not get caught. That is not the point.

For people donating large amounts, however, it is imperative they follow the rules. Word needs to get out to them of ways to do that.

Please focus on spreading that word rather than on how to slip in a few bits of pocket change and get away with something.

Update: New thread here.

 

[fabijo]

I have scanned a few of the messages here and am not sure what the final answer is. However it strikes me that if a Ron Paul supporter puts something up for sale which has an indeterminate value i.e. something autographed by a celebrity, such as the guy who thought of the 5th November or built the website, then we as europeans can legally bid for such an item as can anyone else in the world! We have bought in competition with the world and what you do with the proceeds is up to you! We have no guarantee what you will do with the proceeds. Tonight I hope to buy the liberty dollars one supporter is selling and I will make a sensible bid as I want one, he says he will donate the proceeds but I have no guarantee!!

So how can this possibly be illegal, he sells something and will not know who the final bid is from, and we don't know actually know what will be done with the proceeds.

?????

In that case, I can't see how it would be considered an indirect donation. Once it is profit that a person makes, then it is that person's money. What that person does with that money is his/her business. It would become illegal the moment there was an agreement between the foreigner and U.S. citizen that the proceeds will be used for the campaign.

 

[fabijo]

Giving money in somebody else's name is prohibited. Helping foreign national to do so is a criminal offense.

I never meant to say a U.S. citizen should help this to happen. I just meant that if it happened, how would the citizen know that the money was coming from a non-U.S. citizen?

 

[ashevillejerry]

if it happened, how would the citizen know that the money was coming from a non-U.S. citizen?

Campaigns, PAC's, and 527's all have to report who the donors are, and the donors have to attest that they are U.S. citizens or permanent residents.

Please, instead of focusing on how to break the rules and get away with it, focus on spreading word to donors who can make large contributions that there are ways they may share the message of liberty that are perfectly legal.

Update: New thread here.

 

[liam]

my point entirely fabjo

So just suggest to members to post what they want on ebay and inform the forum and then anyone we can see if we want to purchase it. Remember anyone can bid for these items so they have no idea whether they are a supporter or not, its just some additional advertising for their sale via the forum.

 

[Aaron Wright]

I'm from Canada. I bought a t-shirt. No law against buy a Ron Paul Revolution t-shirt and wearing it EVERYWHERE.

 

[SteveMartin]

Here is a brand new way, that was actually formulated with help from international supporters. Visit www.RonPaulLoveBomb.com.

This is where the idea originated:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=455574&posted=1#post455574

 

[Peterjar]

Dear ashevillejerry,


You may be a paralegal, but I am a Ph. D. organic chemist. If you came to me and asked a question about inorganic chemistry I would refer you to a colleague in my department not provide advice myself. Unless you are a paralegal who is trained in international law, for example, I would still want a second opinion.

On a more general topic, this issue sounds like the issue of liable. It is very difficult to prove “expectation” isn’t it? Just like it is difficult to prove that someone says something with the intent of hurting someone’s career, for instance.

My concern is that this thread will cause panic and fear and will lead to less donations to chipins. PLEASE DONATE.

 

[ashevillejerry]

Dear ashevillejerry,

You may be a paralegal, but I am a Ph. D. organic chemist. If you came to me and asked a question about inorganic chemistry I would refer you to a colleague in my department not provide advice myself. Unless you are a paralegal who is trained in international law, for example, I would still want a second opinion.

Dear Peter,

This has nothing to do with international law; it is an election law issue.

I am very familiar with election law, more so than most attorneys. I have been involved in political action for many years. When I was the chairman of the bylaws committee of the Libertarian Party of California, the party was embroiled in court battles against the State of California on election law issues. The state wanted the party to be governed by the election code; the party wanted its bylaws to govern its affairs. Even in a biased court we won on many key issues.

I suggested you call the FEC to get a second opinion. Did you do that? Or are you just relying on your opinion as the second opinion?

Nobody has cited anything resembling legal authority to rebut what I have said. All I have seen are people posting ways to cheat, notwithstanding the law.

On a more general topic, this issue sounds like the issue of liable. It is very difficult to prove “expectation” isn’t it?

The standard is not what the actual donor expects, but what a reasonable donor under such circumstances would expect. That is quite easy to establish.

I have repeatedly said that somebody might be able to get away with some cheating. That is not the issue.

I started another thread because this one is too cluttered with people trying to get away with something. While that might appeal to a few people with pocket change, most donors contributing substantial amounts will want to follow the law, even if they do not agree with it.

My concern is that this thread will cause panic and fear and will lead to less donations to chipins.

The law is nothing to have panic and fear about. If my posts keep foreign nationals from illegally contributing to ChipIn's, that will be good. There are other ways they can help that are legal, and I want to show those options.

I would encourage you to spread the correct word, even if it means a course correction for you.

 

[Elijah]

I would love to, but that has been deemed most clearly illegal by the FEC. Its considered 'indirectly' funding the campaign by foreigners. If we went ahead with it and people found this post, you'd be in deep trouble and we'd might have trouble entering the US on travel. So we shouldn't go ahead with it at all.

We need to find proper methods for how international supporters can help out within the system. For now, chipins and personal works seem the best route. The last thing we want is to endanger the campaign through illegal activity and gain bad press. Its not like it is 'any press is good press' either, as I can't see Americans being too happy about it as the media would surely represented it as foreigners trying to meddle in American politics.

Hehe - I wish sarcasm showed up clearer than this. I would never ask someone to send me money like that.

 

[MDrollette]

The best way to avoid legal issues is to have all non-American supporters donate to the Ron Paul Blimp Project. This avoids all of the legal issues with international contributions and it has the greatest impact on the campaign. http://ronpaulblimp.com

 

[Hatband]

As far as getting non US contributions into RP's campaign, why doesn't someone just call the Clinton campaign and ask Hillary how she does it?

 

[Mark]

The best way to avoid legal issues is to have all non-American supporters donate to the Ron Paul Blimp Project. This avoids all of the legal issues with international contributions and it has the greatest impact on the campaign. http://ronpaulblimp.com

Again, it is illegal for non US citizens to donate to the blimp. Their Paralegal has said so many times and it's explicitly outlined on the donation pages.

By all means, if you want to, try, but if it's found out, at the least, the money would have to be returned.

FEC Regulations, of course, don't apply to non-US citizens, but they do apply to US companies like the LLC for the blimp.

Just a FYI/CYA

 

[Mark]

I need to call the FEC Monday to clear up some points, but, in the meantime,
I'm not going to solicit contributions from Foreign Nationals for my Church's Electoral Education Project.

We still, however, can of course solicit donations from FNs for the Church's general fund.

If FNs really want a completely legal method of helping Americans in their struggle
against the tyrannical direction the current administration is leading this country,
please contribute to my legally Incorporated Church.

It is completely legitimate, and has been Incorporated for over 9 years.

We are not brand new just for this point in time,
we have never asked for contributions before. Not ever in our 9 year history.

I opened a bank account for it several years ago with $5, and it still has $5 in it.

We just could use a little bit of help now, that's all there is to it.

Whatever you can do will help, thanks.

http://toomchurch.chipin.com/please-help-our-church

 

[tobefree]

Gifts to Ron Paul Suporters

Jerry I wanted to know your thoughts about having a foreign national gift money to a Ron Paul supporter. There is no contractual obligations for the Ron Paul supporter to contribute to the campaign. The supporter has free choice to use the money anyway he wants such as eat out or buy new clothes. However the supporter is more likely to contribute his own money to the campaign. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

 

[Joe3113]

We need someone in the US to start a "Help Ron Paul Supporters Pay Their Bills" Chip-in. So if we donate to it the FEC can't then say international folks were helping the campaign, but obviously if the RP supporters are having their bills paid they will be able to donate more.

 

[Mark]

Jerry I wanted to know your thoughts about having a foreign national gift money to a Ron Paul supporter. There is no contractual obligations for the Ron Paul supporter to contribute to the campaign. The supporter has free choice to use the money anyway he wants such as eat out or buy new clothes. However the supporter is more likely to contribute his own money to the campaign. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

He's probably busy with the blimp now and not reading the forum much, maybe I can help.

FEC regulations in this area apply to all people, regardless of Nationality.

Money cannot be given to anyone under the stipulation of obligation to donate for political campaigns.

For example, an employer cannot give 100 employees $2000 to donate for Dr Paul.

However, an employer CAN give a bonus of $2000 to 100 employees to spend as they see fit.

For example, if you have a friend that you want to give $100 to for Christmas, of course, certainly you can.

Legally though, you can't give that gift specifically in order for your friend to donate to Dr Paul.

 

[Mark]

We need someone in the US to start a "Help Ron Paul Supporters Pay Their Bills" Chip-in. So if we donate to it the FEC can't then say international folks were helping the campaign, but obviously if the RP supporters are having their bills paid they will be able to donate more.

I think something like the http://FiveForFreedom.com is for that to help NH volunteers.

Personally, my Incorporated Church Organization can't give to the campaign,*
or even buy from the Campaign Store (I even called them yesterday to check),

however, I as an individual purchased 20 limited edition buttons, (below)
which I'll donate to my Church,
and then my Church can offer them as a gift to contributors.

~~~~~~~~~
*Prohibited Contributions and Expenditures

The FECA places prohibitions on contributions and expenditures by certain individuals and organizations.
The following are prohibited from making contributions or expenditures to influence federal elections:

• Corporations;
• Labor organizations;
• Federal government contractors; and
• Foreign nationals

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