How can International Supporters of Ron Paul who ARENT US Citizens legally contribute

[GHoeberX]

IANAL, but I am a paralegal, and I have researched this subject extensively, as I am forming a 527 soft money fund, and would love to be able to receive money from foreign nationals, but I cannot. I cannot give you legal advice, but I can give you my $.02.

IamVoting4RonPaul is correct. Direct or indirect influence by foreigners in US elections is illegal. ChipIns, PAC's, 527's, or other funds where the money will be used to influence elections are not allowed, either.

While this thread is titled about foreign nationals, there are some mentions about those in the US. With most ChipIn funds, the donors can reasonably expect a substantial portion of their contributions to go to the express advocacy of Ron Paul's election. Accordingly, it will count as a donation to his campaign.

I have found one way that is 100% legal for foreign nationals to contribute to sharing an important message of liberty that is very aligned with Ron Paul. There is even legal precedent on it. The details are at http://www.ronpaulmax.com/foreign_nationals.html.

Please pass word.

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry

So basically what you are saying is that foreigners can only donate to http://nccs.net or other 501(c)(3) organisations?

 

[ashevillejerry]

501(c)(4)'s should work, too ...

So basically what you are saying is that foreigners can only donate to http://nccs.net or other 501(c)(3) organisations?

501(c)(4)'s should work, too, but none have yet been submitted. If any are submitted where donations would be likely to have any meaningful impact on the upcoming election, but still be allowed for foreign nationals, they will be added at RonPaulMax.com.

To elaborate on the inclusion of NCCS, besides being able to legally accept donation from foreign nationals, it was listed for several other important reasons:

1. NCCS is geared so that, with your donations, constitutional activists can get copies of the Constitution into the hands of people at political events who have a burning interest in learning more about the Constitution. Because Ron Paul is the only candidate so clearly operating on constitutional principles, these folks are natural Ron Paul supporters, as are many of the Constitutional activists who volunteer for NCCS.
2. NCCS does this program on a frugal budget. Often, while the activists are giving away free Constitutions, they collect donations to get a whole lot more printed, so your dollars could generate double or triple the actual number of copies that NCCS promises to deliver.
3. The NCCS version of the Constitution is the most authentic. Many other versions, such as the one from the U.S. Government Printing office have been "corrected." For example, in many places the Constitution referred to united states, with small letters, meaning independent states that are modified by the adjective, united. The government version uses capitals, meaning a federal entity. This is just one example.
4. There is almost no limit on how much money they could put into this program immediately. Donations to most other charities would take too long to generate any result.

I am not part of NCCS, nor do I get any part of the donations to it.

Update: New thread here.

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com

 

[Sey.Naci]

What if I want to get a Ron Paul t-shirt, jacket, or other apparel? Can't do that either?

 

[Peterjar]

Huh?

Sorry, I dont see how Foreign nationals living abroad could possibly be subject to US FEC laws. This is nonsense.

Sorry no offense, but should we really be listening to a paralegal. Aren't there any international law people on the forum who have passed the bar.

I can't believe we have let our first amendment rights slip so far that we are even having to have this discussion.

 

[ashevillejerry]

What if I want to get a Ron Paul t-shirt, jacket, or other apparel? Can't do that either?

Again, it depends on your expectation. If you are buying a product and paying market value for it, that is one thing. On the other hand, if you buy a campaign button with a market value of $1, pay $1000 for it, and reasonably expect that your seller will use a significant portion of the remainder for the express advocacy of Ron Paul's election, it would be a violation.

Keep all the same facts, but change the price paid for the button to $10, and the law is the same, but the chances of being prosecuted get reduced. Nonetheless, I recommend we stay away from even that level of breaking the law. We can follow all the rules and still win, and that is what I suggest we do.

Yours in liberty,


Update: New thread here.

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com

 

[akovacs]

Has anyone tried contacting the campaign about this? I would think they would have a lawyer that is well versed in these laws.

BTW, if donating to chip-ins is illegal, there are plenty of libertarian/constitutionalist sites that do not specifically endorse him, but spread his message. You could donate to sites like lewrockwell.com (Though since they're endorsing him, they lost their non-profit, so may be illegal), or gun owners of america, or the von mises institute (mises.org). Your money may not be used directly in the election, but it will help reinforce his message even if he doesn't get the nomination. They're also used to working with minimal funding, so you can be sure that it will be spent wisely

 

[ashevillejerry]

Sorry, I dont see how Foreign nationals living abroud could possibly be subject to US FEC laws. This is nonsence.

In the same way you may not:

1. Ship illegal drugs into the US;
2. Ship money in to buy illegal drugs,
3. Send money to a foreign address for the benefit of a US person so you can buy illegal drugs,

you cannot ship your money here to influence US elections. Even if you do not get prosecuted for it, the campaign can get fined, plus have to pay legal fees. Plus any american who assists somebody to do this has exposure, both criminally and civilly.


Update: New thread here.

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com

 

[Peterjar]

I call possible troll on the paralegal!

Sorry again, but you are a new member and your post makes no sense, the link doesn't help at all, and you are spreading fear about how we raise money. Sound like a cog in the wheel of the revolution to me.

 

[Sey.Naci]

Jerry, then how might I get a Ron Paul jacket and t-shirt?

I live on Vancouver Island, BC. Loads of Americans also live - and vacation - here. Not only could I use a new jacket and t-shirt*, but as a walking advertisement, I could reach a lot of people.

*Seriously. Am on very low income and haven't purchased new clothing for years. Might this be considered a legitimate reason for the purchase?

 

[ashevillejerry]

Has anyone tried contacting the campaign about this? I would think they would have a lawyer that is well versed in these laws.

The FEC information division is very helpful, and very knowledgable about the law. I have spoken to them many times, and I have never found them to make a mistake. They will even acknowledge where there are gray areas.

BTW, there are plenty of libertarian/constitutionalist sites that do not specifically endorse him, but spread his message. You could donate to sites like gun owners of america, or the von mises institute (mises.org). Your money may not be used directly in the election, but it will help reinforce his message even if he doesn't get the nomination. They're also used to working with minimal funding, so you can be sure that it will be spent wisely

The reason neither of those orgs and many other similar orgs were not listed at RonPaulMax.com is that they do not have specific plans in place to get the message out timely. NCCS does. Give them money today, and the Constitutions will go out right away to activists in the field in direct contact with voters.

Update: New thread here.

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com

 

[ashevillejerry]

Sorry again, but you are a new member and your post makes no sense, the link doesn't help at all, and you are spreading fear about how we raise money. Sound like a cog in the wheel of the revolution to me.

Dear Peter,

I may be a new member to this forum, but not new to the movement.

What part of my post do you not understand? If you go to the link, I have even a cited legal decision and an FEC brocure written for laypeople.

If trying to keep RP supporters and the campaign from getting into trouble with the FEC makes me a cog in the wheel, than I am one. If showing supporters legal ways they can contribute to share the message of liberty, whether they are individuals who have maxed out, corporations, unions, or foreign nationals makes me a troll, I would have see the dictionary you are using.

Update: New thread here.

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com

 

[ashevillejerry]

Jerry, then how might I get a Ron Paul jacket and t-shirt?

I am sure that there are websites, and maybe even threads, with info about products. It would probably not be filed under the international forum.

Some PAC's might not be able to sell them to you, and the campaign may not be able to do so either, because the sale of merchandise might still be considered a contribution. My focus has been on pure donations, not sales of merchandise. You might check with the FEC.

Update: New thread here.

 

[Peterjar]

In the same way you may not:

1. Ship drugs into the US;
2. Ship money in to buy drugs,
3. Send money to a foreign address for the benefit of a US person,

you cannot ship your money here to influence US elections. Even if you do not get prosecuted for it, the campaign can get fined, plus have to pay legal fees. Plus any american who assists somebody to do this has exposure, both criminally and civilly.

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax

This also doesn't make sense. There is nothing illegal about t-shirts (that happen to have Ron Paul's name on them). Also, what if we dont ship them. We can distribute them in Europe, for instance, to get the expat vote out.

LEts get someone who realy knows the law to answer these questions.

 

[ashevillejerry]

Sorry no offense, but should we really be listening to a paralegal.

I would suggest you listen to anybody who has reasonable input, but come to your own conclusions, keeping in mind what is best for RP.

I can't believe we have let our first amendment rights slip so far that we are even having to have this discussion.

Sorry, but foreign nationals have no First Amendment right to influence U.S. elections.

Update: New thread here.

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com

 

[ashevillejerry]

This also doesn't make sense. There is nothing illegal about t-shirts (that happen to have Ron Paul's name on them). Also, what if we dont ship them. We can distribute them in Europe, for instance, to get the expat vote out.

Peter, As I posted earlier, I an not focused on merchandise. If all you are dealing with is a few T-shirts, it is unlikely that anybody will get into trouble, no matter what the law really says on it. My focus is on larger money donations, with no merchandise involved. That is where a real difference can be made, but also where there is more potential for trouble if it is not done according to the law.

LEts get someone who realy knows the law to answer these questions.

I would love to hear from somebody else in the field, ideally an attorney, who knows more on this.

Update: New thread here.

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com

 

[Peterjar]

Cyclical Argument?

I have found one way that is 100% legal for foreign nationals to contribute to sharing an important message of liberty that is very aligned with Ron Paul. There is even legal precedent on it. The details are at http://www.ronpaulmax.com/foreign_nationals.html.




Your post refers to your own webpage (???) where the same potential disinformation is presented in a more formal context. The text does not specify what a "donation" is. Is it a direct donation to a political org? Chipins do not fall into this category. They do not interface with the campaign. All is heresy until we get an expert opinion. I doubt very much the FEC even knows what a chipin is.

Europeans do not have to follow FEC regulations and they also have the right to free speech (mostly).

 

[ashevillejerry]

Your post refers to your own webpage (???) where the same potential disinformation is presented in a more formal context.

Yes, it is more formally presented. It has citations to legal authority.

The text does not specify what a "donation" is. Is it a direct donation to a political org? Chipins do not fall into this category. They do not interface with the campaign. I doubt very much the FEC even knows what a chipin is.

From: http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/citizens.shtml#contribution:

"anything of value given to influence a Federal election is considered a contribution."

(Yes, this is quoted from a brochure for citizens, but the law upon which it is based applies to any contribution, from anybody. For simplicity, because it has anchor links to the exact paragraph, and because the audience here is more laypeople than attorneys, I have cited the brochure.)

It does not matter who it is given to, be it the campaign, a PAC, a 527 or a ChipIn. I would really love to be able to accept contributions from foreign nationals in the 527 that I am organizing, but I may not.

All is heresy until we get an expert opinion.

Peter, you have no idea who I am. Paralegal is a broad term, encompasing people from glorified legal secretaries all the way to people who attorneys treat as unlicensed peers. I have many testimonials, many of them from attorneys, of my competence.

I am also the former Bylaws chair of the LP of California. This kind of thing is second nature to me, certainly more so than an attorney who does unrelated law. Such attorneys would come to me to present to them what I have presented on the link in my first post on this thread. Based upon such a presentation, they would come to the same conclusions that I have.

Call the FEC information division. They are very helpful, and I have never gotten any incorrect information from them.

From reading your posts, it seems you had some plans to encourage foreign nationals to contribute via ChipIns. You may be dissappointed that I and some others have pointed out how doing so would violate FEC regulations if such funds are used to influence a US election. Shooting the messenger will not change the truth of a message that you may not like.

Fortunately, there are other options for foreign nationals that are legal. I urge you to focus on those ways to help and spread the word to others.

Europeans do not have to follow FEC regulations

People in the US who accept foreign money have to follow the FEC regulations.

Europeans ... also have the right to free speech (mostly).

Nonetheless, the US has the right to provide for its own rules of how elections are conducted. If it wants to exclude foreign money, it may do so. RP supports this, too.

Update: New thread here.

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com

 

[fabijo]

What if someone outside the U.S. opened up a U.S. bank account, like through HSBC, then gave money through that account's credit card? The recipient of the money in the U.S. would have no way of knowing that the money came from outside the U.S.

Here is HSBC's international page:
http://www.us.hsbc.com/1/2/3/international-services/relocation

To speak to an International Account Manager, contact the HSBC International Banking Center:

1.877.850.4722 – Toll free in North America
+1.716.841.7542 – Call collect worldwide
[email protected]

By the way, I'm new here. I've been a fan of Ron Paul since earlier this year when I accidentally stumbled upon a YouTube video of him. I just found this site the other day when I was looking for Ron Paul avatars to use on another site unrelated to Ron Paul.

 

[BrianH]

There's been a lot posted on this, but it seems the FEC just relaxed the rules to allow US citizens to buy ads promoting a candidate as Llepard as done in USA Today.

And confirmation by several on this thread that this is OK:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=39975&page=3

So the question is is the FEC going to worry about a non US citizen putting $50 into a US citizens paypal account which he then buys an ad in his local paper promoting Ron Paul providing it is not connected to the official campaign?

I hardly think so!

 

[ashevillejerry]

Two Separate Issues

There's been a lot posted on this, but it seems the FEC just relaxed the rules to allow US citizens to buy ads promoting a candidate as Llepard as done in USA Today.

As far as I know, the rules allowing individual activity by U.S. citizens have always been there. It is a 1st Amendment issue.

So the question is is the FEC going to worry about a non US citizen putting $50 into a US citizens paypal account which he then buys an ad in his local paper promoting Ron Paul providing it is not connected to the official campaign?

I hardly think so!

Whether or not somebody can get away with something and whether or not it is legal are two different questions. I have repeatedly posted that small violations will probably not be a problem (although I do not recommend even them).

However, for larger donations, we need systems that are within the law and above question. While there are only a few people capable of very large donations, their support can make a huge difference, and we need to get word out to them.

Whether somebody may or may not get away with an illegal activity using their pocket change is probably not that important. I want to focus on getting word out to the large donors who need legal vehicles by which to help share the message of liberty. I encourage you to help get that word out.

Update: New thread here.

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com