How About a REAL Liberty Perspective

[AuH20]

Post an example of a libertarian saying they want to leave the welfare state intact.

It is fact that closing the borders is the only legal available option in contrast to denying benefits and services. We've had federal courts strike down states that tried to deny illegal aliens any forms of benefits or public education.

http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/po...nti-immigrant-law-allows-undocumented-to-get/

In a unanimous decision, the court struck down the last piece of a voter-approved law meant to deter undocumented immigrants from living and working in the “Treasure State.” It upholds a 2014 ruling stating that the law denying unemployment benefits, university enrollment and other services to people who are in the country illegally was unconstitutional.

But I don't think some libertarians really care what the corrupt courts ruled. The incentive laden invasion must continue in their eyes.

 

[AuH20]

That is not even a band-aid, they are just leaving the wound gushing. And I'm no fan of letting the victims bleed out because the people are the real victims. You do not support protectionism or national borders as the proper solutions... I know that from our talks... and so I have much less problem with you supporting a candidate like Trump because you are not claiming his flawed principles are liberty ones... much like the Johnson folks aren't claiming being forced to bake cakes is the liberty position. You instead give your opinion on why you think he is the best path forward. I can completely respect that.

I am more of a nationalist in the current paradigm, but I could live with the idea of open borders and no welfare state.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

It is fact that closing the borders is the only legal available option in contrast to denying benefits and services.

Closing the border would require legislation.

Eligibility for benefits/services could likewise be changed through legislation.

And much more easily, as it would be more popular.

Everyone who supports closing the border would support restricting benefits, but not the inverse.

We've had federal courts strike down states that tried to deny illegal aliens any forms of benefits or public education.

Despite that Montana law being struck down, there are already eligibility restrictions at both the federal and state level.

Thus, it must be possible to write these laws in such a way that the courts won't reject them.

But I don't think some libertarians really care what the corrupt courts ruled. The incentive laden invasion must continue in their eyes.

I know for a fact that many Trumpkins would want to restrict immigration even if there were no welfare.

 

[dannno]

This is (was?) a libertarian forum.

So, why in the hell are Trump promoters allowed to be here at all?

...it was actually decided months ago that they weren't, but there has been ~0 enforcement of that policy.

Would Romney supporters have been allowed to run amok here last cycle?

Or McCain supporters the cycle before that?

Absurd

In another thread that is currently active, it's largely Trump supporters who are supporting free speech, while the anti-Trump supporters are not.. which is kinda funny cuz Trump has made some anti-free speech comments. You would think they would have brought that up in the thread, but instead they try and discredit the attack on free speech that is occurring, and I'm left dumbfounded.

 

[Antischism]

In another thread that is currently active, it's largely Trump supporters who are supporting free speech, while the anti-Trump supporters are not.. which is kinda funny cuz Trump has made some anti-free speech comments. You would think they would have brought that up in the thread, but instead they try and discredit the attack on free speech that is occurring, and I'm left dumbfounded.

Would it be against free speech if the mods/site owner banned someone who kept spewing hatred about Ron Paul on the forums? Would people calling for this person to get banned be against free speech? Or does that not apply since this is a privately owned site? Would you defend the person spreading that hatred and their "free speech" here against those who want to cast them out?

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you're free from the potential consequences of said speech on, say, a privately owned forum.

 

[Intoxiklown]

Not even the libertarians on here can agree to a consensus on what kind of society they want. So how can you say that it has a better record at coalition building than Nationalism?

From what I've seen over the past decade, libertarianism hasn't been able to build a coalition even with people actively working at it, while Nationalism has erupted spontaneously with no real central effort at all.

You're mistaken. People are openly saying ideas and train of thoughts that I was damn near lynched a few years ago for saying. A decade is a blink of the eye, brother. Yes, I "hoped", but if anyone honestly expected to win any of these elections, you're far more optimistic than I.

The reason for all the frustration is because what we're all trying to do in the end (I don't get into all labels like ya'll do. Libertarian, anarchist, paleo-whatever) is a long term project, but we're up against short term deadlines. You made mention of the debt. It's going to get worse. Socialism, communism....they're going to get worse. And you all want to pass the time fighting with each other.

Dig it. I think Trump is a progressive in hiding, and I'd never vote for him. But hell, I don't are if you or anyone else votes for him. Either way, we're going to get one of two options.I can't change that, so why get worked up over it? The truth of it is real simple. All of the Trump supporters want others to validate their decision, that's the only reason to be defending him here. And the people you're fighting with, feel butt hurt betrayed because instead of 3rd party or not voting, you're supporting "part of the machine". So you all wind up fighting like two boy dogs.

The simple fact is the message of liberty as I think we all collectively see it, won't happen in our lifetimes. It will, at best, be my grandchildren who might get to see it. But I'm also part coon ass, which means I am hard headed in a way most people don't understand. So I don't compromise anything when it comes to candidates, but I have to since I have children (my son who is libertarian, and my daughter who of all things is leaning socialist) watching me. And there's nothing wrong with you or anyone else making a compromise or taking a chance.

Just saying patience. Long term patience. How we each exercise that....that's up to you. But you're not betraying anything, because the outcome is in no way up for grabs. At the same time, people that won't vote for either one won't affect it either, so why get worked up?

 

[Ronin Truth]

That could provide a somewhat more welcome refreshing change. Bring it!

 

[r3volution 3.0]

In another thread that is currently active, it's largely Trump supporters who are supporting free speech, while the anti-Trump supporters are not.

How so? Which thread?

 

[Origanalist]

I think the name-calling goes both ways... probably about 50-50.

seems to me the anti-Trumpers are more vitriolic, though.

What do you know poopy head?

 

[euphemia]

Closing the border would require legislation.

Eligibility for benefits/services could likewise be changed through legislation.

And much more easily, as it would be more popular.

Everyone who supports closing the border would support restricting benefits, but not the inverse.



Despite that Montana law being struck down, there are already eligibility restrictions at both the federal and state level.

But look at what you are asking for: More Laws.

I don't think we need to permanently close the borders, but I do think we need about a four-year moratorium on immigration. The US needs a break. Just breathing space to repeal a lot of progams and close down departments and then set up the kind of immigration system that is doable and enforceable.

This is how I feel about the income tax, too. I do not want a national sales tax unless the present income tax goes away and can never be brought back.

 

[CPUd]

I couldn't imagine paying state + federal income tax. But sales tax in TN is relatively high.

 

[euphemia]

I couldn't imagine paying state + federal income tax. But sales tax in TN is relatively high.

Exactly. A lot of people (Ron Paul included) are for a fair tax. I will never support this until the national income tax is permanently outlawed and the IRS is out of business. That means there is no such thing as a Department of Internal Revenue and every single asset has been liquidated.

 

[euphemia]

And there should be no new office furniture purchased ever again. The GSA needs to hve an auction/yard sale out on the National Mall to clean out the warehouses of all but the most precious relics, and then those relics should be put out in museums permanently. Government is the one place where soicalism needs to reign in the sense that everyone gets the same desk, chair, and furnishings. That includes Congress.

 

[euphemia]

Somebody needs to get on this liberty stuff. We are held hostage by all the physical stuff we are forced to pay to care for that nobody even uses. And we pay people a lot of money to lock the warehouses that hold it.

 

[ifthenwouldi]

There is not an agreement on what a liberty candidate even is.

There used to be, before this election season and the rise of Trump nationalism. Regardless, based on the site's name and stated goals, I think understanding and debating the liberty movement in the U.S. starts here:

https://www.amazon.com/Liberty-Defined-Essential-Issues-Freedom/dp/B00CNKPCNK

 

[r3volution 3.0]

But look at what you are asking for: More Laws.

LOL

I'm asking for a law to cut welfare benefits.

You're asking for a law to aggress against innocent people, doing nothing more than trying to cross an imaginary line in the desert.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

There used to be, before this election season and the rise of Trump nationalism. Regardless, based on the site's name and stated goals, I think understanding and debating the liberty movement in the U.S. starts here:

https://www.amazon.com/Liberty-Defined-Essential-Issues-Freedom/dp/B00CNKPCNK

Indeed, it's not that libertarianism is vague, it's that a lot of people calling themselves libertarians these days don't understand it.

 

[euphemia]

LOL

I'm asking for a law to cut welfare benefits.

You're asking for a law to aggress against innocent people, doing nothing more than trying to cross an imaginary line in the desert.

I didn't ask for anything. I think we need an immigration moratorium to see what we have and move from there. With the blazing speed of a three-toed sloth, the government might make a dent in about four years.

 

[euphemia]

What I am asking for is to have full departments removed and liquidated. Fire people who aren't doing their jobs. Reduce and reorganize. That requires no law. It requires that a lot of laws and regulations be repealed.

 

[RJB]

What I am asking for is to have full departments removed and liquidated. Fire people who aren't doing their jobs. Reduce and reorganize. That requires no law. It requires that a lot of laws and regulations be repealed.

I'd vote for you over the current clowns we have running, seriously.