House approves back pay for federal workers

[better-dead-than-fed]

In reality, there are a number of people for whom that first check of the month would have been their rent money.

There is no natural right to rent-money. Not only aren't they entitled to rent money, but when you use government to provide housing, food, and health care for people, you are taking housing, food, and health care from others. If these people can't survive without government jobs, I have no problem letting nature take its course with them.

Government employment is effectively a form of welfare, to which I'm opposed for reasons given here:

• http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...rogram-Halts&p=5256800&viewfull=1#post5256800
• http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...isk-As-WIC-Program-Halt&p=5253725#post5253725
• http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...Program-Halt&p=5255160&viewfull=1#post5255160

 

[HOLLYWOOD]

NO Work, NO Pay... it's the risks you take in life. You get laid-off, you don't get paid and go collect unemployment. As far as Congress goes, this is 100% to cover their spineless asses. They don't want Americans catching on to the big con game. This is the prefect example how government destroys productivity, backs to their wicked ways of bribery, extortion, racketeering, corruption, and fraud... all to keep their power/control, at the expense of the taxpayers.

AND yes... I know so-called "furloughed government workers"... I wish I would of recorded and posted their conversions. Basically, enjoying paid vacations, getting things done about the house, goofing off, you name it, those .gov workers are enjoying it.

The picture below reflects exactly what the government employees feel of the shutdown. BTW, it's only about 20% of Federal paychecked employees furloughed.

Furlough??? Loving It!!!!! The people that still have to stay on the job are no doubt jealous.

This is how most federal employees probably view it. They know the Fed will continue to create funny money so no worry for them not getting paid. Private workers and business hear furlough they know its a nice way of saying they are terminated.

 

[seapilot]

In this current situation Id rather be a furloughed govt worker than a small business that depends on visitors being threatened by use of force or penalty to stop servicing people. Its basically shut down or we pull your permit and shut you down permanently. Yet those doing the intimidating do not have to worry financially about their future. Its ironic that those business pay taxes to the govt and they are now using those taxes to keep them from generating more tax revenue. Not only that but each visitor to the parks pay a fee to enter. Those fees go directly to the Park Service. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

 

[MelissaWV]

I yield. The logic level in this thread has convinced me that withholding the checks of people who work for the Government is going to end all of the huge Government ills out there, or at least make some meaningful dent, and will not in fact lead to blowback and additional Government programs to study the problem and ensure that nothing this catastrophic ever happens again. There is nothing more dire than withholding their checks. It is, in fact, worthy of massive celebration.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

I yield. The logic level in this thread has convinced me that withholding the checks of people who work for the Government is going to end all of the huge Government ills out there, or at least make some meaningful dent, and will not in fact lead to blowback and additional Government programs to study the problem and ensure that nothing this catastrophic ever happens again. There is nothing more dire than withholding their checks. It is, in fact, worthy of massive celebration.

Nobody said that.

For some reason I am supposed to feel sorry for at best neutrally productive people sent home for a few days only to receive back pay with interest. What a fucking joke. Not only do I not feel particularly bad for these people, though I have sympathy for the young who cannot help themselves, it should be straight away clear cut that they ought get real goddamn jobs. That this "shutdown" won't lead to them being told as much is indicative of the spinelessness of Congress and the general welfarist attitude Americans project. Let's build billion dollar submarines that no one wants because otherwise people starve and die in the streets. Yeah, I'm not seeing it.

 

[MelissaWV]

Nobody said that.

For some reason I am supposed to feel sorry for at best neutrally productive people sent home for a few days only to receive back pay with interest. What a fucking joke. Not only do I not feel particularly bad for these people, though I have sympathy for the young who cannot help themselves, it should be straight away clear cut that they ought get real goddamn jobs. That this "shutdown" won't lead to them being told as much is indicative of the spinelessness of Congress and the general welfarist attitude Americans project. Let's build billion dollar submarines that no one wants because otherwise people starve and die in the streets. Yeah, I'm not seeing it.

There's interest on it now? I must have missed that. It's not in the article or in any similar ones I've read.

Again, you've decided to use hyperbole here. The people building those submarines are not Government workers. They are being bought by the Government, though. Did furloughing workers stop the subs from being built and purchased? No. It was aimed at "stopping the loan approval process" and furloughing secretaries and techs at the VA hospital who'd normally draw blood and process lab work. It is framed as torpedoing WIC and welfare (even though that's not really happening, either). It isn't chopping off the arms of Government. It is giving it a hangnail.

Non-essential employees who could not go to work because their workplace was shut down will be getting back pay. I don't love it, but I also don't take it as hard as some here are. I guess I wasn't as enraptured by the idea of a tiny fraction of Government workers --- the ones who make the least and do the most, in several cases --- being furloughed while the bigger problems are still being paid.

Maybe that's where the focus should be? "Essential" workers will be getting back pay when it's all over, but they were working this whole time. "Non-essential" workers will be getting back pay when it's all over, but they weren't working this whole time. The Government workers themselves should be the ones pissed off about it.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I yield. The logic level in this thread has convinced me that withholding the checks of people who work for the Government is going to end all of the huge Government ills out there, or at least make some meaningful dent, and will not in fact lead to blowback and additional Government programs to study the problem and ensure that nothing this catastrophic ever happens again. There is nothing more dire than withholding their checks. It is, in fact, worthy of massive celebration.

You've been straw-manning.

Your main point seems to be about the cruelty of a sudden loss of income or a job, which is not unique to this situation. It happens all the time. This shutdown was no surprise. We all knew it was coming. As far as anecdotes about layoff details, I can point to a couple of times I have been laid off, one time from one of the largest and oldest corporations in the nation, and there was not a severance. Once again, this is a discussion that is greater in scope than just this specific government "shutdown".

Your point about us "all being played" is very relevant. But it doesn't mean that anyone here is being suckered. On the contrary, the anger stems directly from the fact that it is charade. Furloughs are supposed to save money. At this point, especially after this vote, this so-called shutdown is actually costing more money than would be spent just keeping it running. DC loves to spend money, and apparently fighting that fact only results in more money being spent.

This is beyond discouraging.

 

[SludgeFactory]

Nobody said that.

For some reason I am supposed to feel sorry for at best neutrally productive people sent home for a few days only to receive back pay with interest. What a fucking joke. Not only do I not feel particularly bad for these people, though I have sympathy for the young who cannot help themselves, it should be straight away clear cut that they ought get real goddamn jobs. That this "shutdown" won't lead to them being told as much is indicative of the spinelessness of Congress and the general welfarist attitude Americans project. Let's build billion dollar submarines that no one wants because otherwise people starve and die in the streets. Yeah, I'm not seeing it.

I think it would be far more productive if we focused all this energy on the actual agencies themselves as opposed to the people who are employed by them. Not every agency is an NSA type place where the workers knowingly undermine the civil liberties of the citizens of this country. That said, many of the agencies that have been formed should be shut down. Going after the individual people that work at these agencies won't solve that. Instead, supporting and pushing your representatives to support something like Rand Paul's bill a year or so ago that would defund many of these agencies would be an excellent start.

 

[phill4paul]

Since they are going to receive back pay then shouldn't they, you know, go back to work?

 

[MelissaWV]

You've been straw-manning.

Your main point seems to be about the cruelty of a sudden loss of income or a job, which is not unique to this situation. It happens all the time. This shutdown was no surprise. We all knew it was coming. As far as anecdotes about layoff details, I can point to a couple of times I have been laid off, one time from one of the largest and oldest corporations in the nation, and there was not a severance. Once again, this is a discussion that is greater in scope than just this specific government "shutdown".

Your point about us "all being played" is very relevant. But it doesn't mean that anyone here is being suckered. On the contrary, the anger stems directly from the fact that it is charade. Furloughs are supposed to save money. At this point, especially after this vote, this so-called shutdown is actually costing more money than would be spent just keeping it running. DC loves to spend money, and apparently fighting that fact only results in more money being spent.

This is beyond discouraging.

I've been addressing the strawmen others have put up, including the one I bolded. It happens in other situations; others have mentioned layoffs. When you are laid off, there is usually severance pay. It is not generally withheld for an indeterminate period of time. So yeah, that part's a strawman.

The furlough, even BEFORE this back pay for non-essential personnel, was going to cost a shitload of money.

 

[tod evans]

Since they are going to receive back pay then shouldn't they, you know, go back to work?

 

[phill4paul]

I have up most respect for that handicapped shovel. Too proud to let federal workers help it to stand.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

There's interest on it now? I must have missed that. It's not in the article or in any similar ones I've read.

Again, you've decided to use hyperbole here. The people building those submarines are not Government workers. They are being bought by the Government, though. Did furloughing workers stop the subs from being built and purchased? No. It was aimed at "stopping the loan approval process" and furloughing secretaries and techs at the VA hospital who'd normally draw blood and process lab work. It is framed as torpedoing WIC and welfare (even though that's not really happening, either). It isn't chopping off the arms of Government. It is giving it a hangnail.

Non-essential employees who could not go to work because their workplace was shut down will be getting back pay. I don't love it, but I also don't take it as hard as some here are. I guess I wasn't as enraptured by the idea of a tiny fraction of Government workers --- the ones who make the least and do the most, in several cases --- being furloughed while the bigger problems are still being paid.

Maybe that's where the focus should be? "Essential" workers will be getting back pay when it's all over, but they were working this whole time. "Non-essential" workers will be getting back pay when it's all over, but they weren't working this whole time. The Government workers themselves should be the ones pissed off about it.

What you technically label those building the submarine is nothing short of semantics. The government, against the wishes of the Navy in some instances, approves of another round of contracts aimed at simply keeping people in key Congressional districts with jobs. It is nothing short of corporate, tax funded, (inflationary or otherwise) welfare. I understand that this isn't some big triumph to be paraded around but to be clear, the reason things people like are attacked first is to discourage Americans to ever consider stopping a dime of the gravy train. The truly worthless or even detrimental no doubt are still "working." Of course, they'll target WIC and National Parks as a means to get Americans back in line and to dissuade any future thoughts or realizations that this bloated, overbearing, corporatacracy is not needed.

 

[tod evans]

I have up most respect for that handicapped shovel. Too proud to let federal workers help it to stand.

I couldn't help it...

That's the mental picture I have of every government employee.

 

[MelissaWV]

What you technically label those building the submarine is nothing short of semantics. The government, against the wishes of the Navy in some instances, approves of another round of contracts aimed at simply keeping people in key Congressional districts with jobs. It is nothing short of corporate, tax funded, (inflationary or otherwise) welfare. I understand that this isn't some big triumph to be paraded around but to be clear, the reason things people like are attacked first is to discourage Americans to ever consider stopping a dime of the gravy train. The truly worthless or even detrimental no doubt are still "working." Of course, they'll target WIC and National Parks as a means to get Americans back in line and to dissuade any future thoughts or realizations that this bloated, overbearing, corporatacracy is not needed.

I should have been more specific about the submarine thing; that's my fault. I meant that in the context of *this* conversation, the submarine-building is not stopping because of this furlough or any other. The Government is still BUYING things, it has just reduced its EMPLOYMENT of people... and that only by a very small percent.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I've been addressing the strawmen others have put up, including the one I bolded. It happens in other situations; others have mentioned layoffs. When you are laid off, there is usually severance pay. It is not generally withheld for an indeterminate period of time. So yeah, that part's a strawman.

The furlough, even BEFORE this back pay for non-essential personnel, was going to cost a shitload of money.

I've used the "lay-off" comparison because it is worse than a furlough. Worse things can and do happen than a furlough, much more often in the private sector than with our benevolent and generous government.

 

[TaftFan]

Responding to some of the comments directed at my post...

1. Working for the federal government does not mean you have a "fake" job. Many of these jobs are very useful, they just shouldn't be done by the federal government. But because the federal government can establish a monopoly due to either laws restricting competition or because its pay and benefits make it the best place for job seekers, people will work their and they should based on economic incentives.

2. It obviously was not stupid for these people to take the government jobs. The bill to pay them, after all, did get passed unanimously.

3. I never said anybody has a right to a job, government or private sector.

4. These people are not going to file for unemployment because then they would have to quit their job, which would be insanely stupid. Plus, putting people on unemployment means they are being paid by the government for doing nothing whatsoever.

5. Let's see what happens when 17% of the workforce has to default on monthly payments because their employer decided that they wouldn't get paid for a month. Sure, they are on vacation, but I guarantee they would rather work for money than not work and have no money. It wasn't their decision.

6. No, you don't tell these workers to "get a job". Imagine going up to a business and saying, "Hey, can you hire me for the remainder of the government shutdown"? There is no way in hell they will be hired.

 

[TaftFan]

To be clear, I support reducing the federal workforce. Not paying them for the duration of the shutdown not only doesn't do that, it creates more problems than whatever benefit would come from not paying them their salaries.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I'd wager those are the slaves that Torchbearer mentioned earlier.

(I.e. Community service.)

 

[Ender]

I think it would be far more productive if we focused all this energy on the actual agencies themselves as opposed to the people who are employed by them. Not every agency is an NSA type place where the workers knowingly undermine the civil liberties of the citizens of this country. That said, many of the agencies that have been formed should be shut down. Going after the individual people that work at these agencies won't solve that. Instead, supporting and pushing your representatives to support something like Rand Paul's bill a year or so ago that would defund many of these agencies would be an excellent start.

Agreed- get rid of the agencies that have no bearing on how a republic should function is the right first step. Punishing the little guys who work for them is non-profitable in many ways.