High-quality, low-cost precision rifle rig

[pcosmar]

High-quality, low-cost precision rifle rig

Both of those are relative, But for a good balance, I like the Ruger Scout Rifle. (but haven't really checked one out)

I think it is a nice balance of several factors.

 

[Intoxiklown]

Only 60 rounds? No way, my friend. I typically shoot 400 rounds through my AR during a typical practice session without any cleaning. Much of this is rapid fire that gets the barrel and action really hot. I've never had a single malfunction in thousands of rounds ranging from 1993 Spanish mil-surp to brand new match hollowpoints. A properly-made AR, while not as bomb-proof as an AK, is still extremely reliable. Magazines for the AR used to be a real weak spot, but now there are some really tough mags out there, like the Magpul PMags.

Here's an example of what a properly-made AR can endure without cleaning:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=95136

And speaking of bomb-proof, check out this torture test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCBcV2Nb2Wo

I was speaking figuratively. Point being, the AR design is simply not as reliable for endurance firing as the AK. There is no disputing this fact. I fired MANY version of this weapon while in the Army, and they all are epic fail at reliability when it comes to this. Bear in mind, I've put thousands of rounds through an AK without cleaning it, and the only reason I did clean it finally, was because it just was wrong not to. The weapon itself never performed anything less than perfect.

The critical point here is that not all ARs are created equal. Some manufacturers put out "hobby guns" that aren't made to military standards and just aren't as likely to hold up under heavy use. Other manufacturers make the real deal, and some make stuff that's better than what the military gets. Some of the best manufacturers include Larue, Noveske, Daniel Defense, Bravo Company, and Colt. There are other high-end manufacturers out there that aren't as well-known.

Note that this is also true of the AK. Some are very well made. Others are crap that won't hold up. Mine is Russian and is as durable as a hammer, but some makes are just clumsy copies.

All my references are made from experience with military grade M-16s, M4s, and commercial AR builds.

One weakness of the AR is that some of the parts are "wear items" that need to be replaced every so often. But these tend to be cheap and very easily replaced (e.g., extractor springs). It's easy to keep a lot of them handy.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying that the AR is as durable as an AK. I just think it's durable enough that its other advantages outweigh the durability of the AK.

Another thing you're not addressing is the interchangability of the AK series. I can take parts from a Russia made AK, parts from a Chinese made AK, and parts from a Ukrainian AK, and have a "Frankenstien" weapon that just won't quit. The AR series cannot say the same, due to tolerances.

You're right that most assault rifles aren't built for pure distance shooting. But distance shooting is arguably what anyone who's outnumbered and/or outgunned should be trying to do, with close-quarters shooting under those circumstances reserved for emergencies only. Think of Charles Whitman (not that I condone his killing of innocents). How long would he have lasted with all those people firing at him if he'd been within 50 yards of them? The AR out-ranges the AK and is accurate enough to aim around body armor, especially if a "designated marksman" type of AR is used:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle

There is much to be said for being able to hit a 4-inch diameter target at 400 yards while also being able to dish out rapid fire at close range as a last resort. This is the sort of versatility that a good AR (not necessarily in 5.56) and good ammo can provide. The AK is for close range only, unless you're lucky enough to have one that's unusually accurate (and they are out there).

I can give you a shot group inside a quarter at 250 yards open sights with the AK. And I'm sorry, but very, very rarely is combat at those ranges. If you are engaging targets at 400 yards consistently, then using an assault rifle of any kind is foolish. Because all you're doing is giving your position away. And if you're holed up in a place where that is not an issue, trying to pick targets out instead of trying to get your rear out of there is inviting disaster. Almost all combat takes place within 100 yards and closer.

One option for those who prefer the AK in a SHTF situation might be to keep the AK in their hands for close range encounters while carrying a lightweight bolt gun in a backpack for long shots.

You can still do that with an AR. As noted above, its lack of reliability is a myth born partly from its teething problems in Vietnam, and partly from low-quality commercial copies.

This is simply not true. The later A2s as well as the M4s have the same issues. It is a design flaw. The only reason NATO forces don't use the AK is because the 7.62x39mm is considered an inhumane round. There are reasons that pretty much the rest of the world use it.

I'd humbly recommend against that. Piston ARs are a solution to a non-problem. If you can afford an HK-416, your money would be much better spent on something like a Larue Stealth or OBR. (I'm looking very hard at an OBR in .308 myself. These are getting rave reviews from everyone who fires them.)

The HK-416 is a far superior weapon the to AR and AK both. They have done tests where no matter what they did, the HK was pumping rounds out like a champ, while the M4 was blowing up. You can expect to see American SOG using the HK soon.

How much penetration you get depends on the bullet and the material you're trying to shoot through as much as on the cartridge.

Because of its high speed and small diameter, 5.56x45 penetrates body armor better than lead-core 7.62x39 does. This is especially true of the widely-available M855 (or XM855) steel core NATO ammo. Even .308 doesn't penetrate body armor as well as 5.56 NATO unless you have steel core 7.62 bullets (e.g., M61), which are hard to find nowadays. For example, there are lightweight polyethylene hard plates out there that can stop 7.62 NATO (lead core) but not 5.56 NATO (steel core M855). The newest military helmet is also made of polyethylene and is designed to stop 7.62x39. Thus, I'd take the 5.56 versus body armor every time, unless I had a plentiful supply of TRUE armor-piercing rounds for my AK or .308.

Where the bigger bullets do better than the 5.56 is against glass (like auto windshields) and many common building materials. But I care more about armor than about those things.

Ok, I had to get with a friend of mine at Campbell on this before I started running my mouth. Military grade body armor won't stop an AK if it misses the trauma plates, unless at extreme distances, and even then, you are talking massive blunt force trauma. The plates will stop them, but they will as well the 5.56. However, the sheer power of an AK round will knock the guy down regardless, and most likely break some ribs to boot. Law Enforcement aren't known to use the same grade body armor as military forces, unless you want to talk SWAT.

Where are you getting this stuff?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

This thread gives me rifle envy.

 

[twisted]

don''t have an inaccurate autorifle as your main gun, and you wont have to resort the the great danger of having only a bolt action when sniping. What you WANT is a sound suppressed autorifle, then you don't NEED to fire from long range, and you can hit A LOT MORE people, and conceal your gear on the way in and out of the "hide" you fire from, too. High value targets are not found in the boondocks, and hitting a few grunts aint worth the trouble. you gotta take it to the "big boys', and that means 100m shots at men who have body guards and are hittable only as they move from vehicle to buildings, and vice versa.

 

[twisted]

An M4 can easily and reliably hit men at 1/4 mile, if it's set up right. A 24" match upper receiver and barrel drops right onto any AR lower, and it's not a gun, so it can be mailed to anyone. The M4 breaks into 2 concealable "halves" in 5 seconds, with the popping of 2 pushpins, and can be reassembled and fired in 10 seconds or less. Simply leave the rd in the chamber, and leave the loaded mag in the lower receiver. A 24" 223, using 75 gr Hornady polymer tipped sp's, still has 500 ft lbs left at 500 yds, the same as a 6" 357 revolver has left at 50 yds. So taking deer at 500 yds with the 223 is just as feasible as at 50 yds with the 357 pistol, IF you can hit them at the greater distance, that is. Realistically, an M4, with the Nosler Partition softpoint, for deep penetration and good expansion, is just as good a deer rifle as the 30-30 lever action ever was, with the caveat to avoid the shoulder bones. The 24" 223, using 77 gr bthp's (which do feed from the mag) makes the combo quite feasible as a 700 yd sniping rifle. 7" more of OAL, adding the sound suppressor, does make the gun a bit awkward, so me, I'd settle for a 20" barrel and a limit of 500 meters, if I bothered with more range/gear than the basic scoped M4, that is. I wouldn't so bother, btw.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

springfield armory m1a scout or loaded

 

[osan]

Seriously, a BAR in 300 Winmag in decent condition for that money is a steal.

Did you ever buy it?

 

[Matt Collins]

Cheap Chinese scopes which are pretty good for the money -

http://dx.com/s/scope

 

[youngbuck]

I can give you a shot group inside a quarter at 250 yards open sights with the AK. And I'm sorry, but very, very rarely is combat at those ranges.

I agree with essentially everything in your post, but there is no way this is true. Even the most well made AK on the market is not capable of this kind of precision. Inside 10", yes. Inside a quarter, hell no.

And I have very accurate Bulgarian AK with a milled receiver, an Ultimak gas tube/rail, and various high quality, high dollar optics, and have used it out to 300 yards on many occasions.

 

[Tpoints]

Both of those are relative, But for a good balance, I like the Ruger Scout Rifle. (but haven't really checked one out)

I think it is a nice balance of several factors.

let me know when you do, I'm in the market

 

[AFPVet]

I've shot the 375 Weatherby mag.....Large game? Hell the way that thing kicks it'd stop a Cummins.

I agree bigger stops better, for many years the ol' M1 in 30-06 was all most anybody hunted with unless you were lucky enough to hunt rhinos or elephants.

Here in the sticks most shots at deer are taken in underbrush well under 100yds and the 45-70 has proven itself time and again with its ability to plow through both sides of the rib cage AFTER tearing through a sapling. A Marlin 1895 is fairly inexpensive and pretty much idiot proof, light for the punch it packs and cartridges aren't an arm and a leg like Weatherby ammo is.

Lots of folks like to load up on supposed "man-killers", easily converted semi-autos with big mags....and that's fine if you like shooting at a range or at targets but for hunting a person is wise to talk to local old-timers.....Prong-horn hunting in the mountains is way different than white-tail hunting in the Ozarks.

Even with factory loads, the .45-70 is around the same power as a 12 gauge slug... definitely nothing to sneeze at; while, handloaded, it can get damn close to .458 Win. Mag levels.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

100 yards is a common standard, but any distance will do depending on the gun sight and what it is you are trying to accomplish.

For example, if you are using a simple dot reticle on a 32x scope for 1000 yard bench shooting you are going to zero at 1000 yards because you are aiming for ultimate accuracy at that range. You do not want a mil-dot affair and fiddling with the elevated graduations. You want to put the hairs precisely on the center of that tiny target and have at it. If you are scout/sniper milling about in the woods or in Afghanistan shooting at moving targets at constantly changing ranges, the requirements are completely different. You will usually zero at the range you believe will be most commonly encountered and adjust your sight picture to match conditions for range and windage. Simple in theory - not so easy in practice.



Good semi-auto rifle. How much?

I would never zero a rifle at 100 yards, the drop comps would be impossible at longer ranges. The Army specifies a BZO at 200 yards, and the Marines specify a BZO at 300 yards. All my rifles are zeroed at 300 yards.

A 300 yard zero is not going to hurt your aim anywhere inside of point blank range.

5.56 NATO:

M855 20" barrel MV 3100fps 300 yard zero

25 yd impact is 0.22" above point of aim
50 yd impact is 1.71" above point of aim
75 yd impact is 2.94" above point of aim
100 yd impact is 3.9" above point of aim
150 yd impact is 4.98" above point of aim
200 yd impact is 4.8" above point of aim
250 yd impact is 3.21" above point of aim
300 yd impact is 0" above point of aim

Maximum variance is at 175 yards, with the impact being 5" above the point of aim.

7.62x51 NATO

M80 21" barrel MV 2700fps 300 yard zero

25 yd impact is 0.62" above point of aim
50 yd impact is 2.43" above point of aim
75 yd impact is 3.91" above point of aim
100 yd impact is 5.06" above point of aim
150 yd impact is 6.27" above point of aim
200 yd impact is 5.94" above point of aim
250 yd impact is 3.91" above point of aim
300 yd impact is 0" above point of aim

Maximum variance is at 175 yards, with the impact being 6.31" above the point of aim.

If I am not mistaken, the Army set their BZO at 200 yards with the 7.62 round

M80 21" barrel MV 2700fps 200 yard zero

25 yd impact is 0.12" below point of aim
50 yd impact is 0.94" above point of aim
75 yd impact is 1.69" above point of aim
100 yd impact is 2.09" above point of aim
150 yd impact is 2.14" above point of aim
200 yd impact is 0" above point of aim
250 yd impact is 3.5" below point of aim
300 yd impact is 8.86" below point of aim

Although this gives you less variance inside of PBR (Point Blank Range) your 300 yard impact is enough off to make point of aim point of impact a little dicey.

Everybody agrees that the M855 from a 20" barrel is a round with an extremely flat trajectory. To illustrate my earlier point about a 100 yard zero...

5.56 NATO:

M855 20" barrel MV 3100fps 100 yard zero

25 yd impact is 0.75" below point of aim
50 yd impact is 0.25" below point of aim
75 yd impact is 0.01" above point of aim
100 yd impact is 0" above point of aim
150 yd impact is 0.88" below point of aim
200 yd impact is 3.01" below point of aim
250 yd impact is 6.56" below point of aim
300 yd impact is 11.68" below point of aim

Even with a ridiculously flat round like the M855 from a 20" barrel, the 300 yard range from a 100 yard zero is near a full foot low.

Now the standard .308 (7.62x51 NATO) when zeroed at 100 yards becomes neigh on impossible

7.62x51 NATO

M80 21" barrel MV 2700fps 100 yard zero

25 yd impact is 0.64" below point of aim
50 yd impact is 0.1" below point of aim
75 yd impact is 0.13" above point of aim
100 yd impact is 0" above point of aim
150 yd impact is 1.3" below point of aim
200 yd impact is 4.16" below point of aim
250 yd impact is 8.7" below point of aim
300 yd impact is 15.1" below point of aim

Bear in mind that ALL of this is at what the infantry calls "Point Blank Range" for a combat rifle. Once you get out to a longer range...for instance the M80 with a 100 yard zero

400 yd impact is 34.21" below point of aim
500 yd impact is 63.22" below point of aim

Of course, marksmen are taught to adjust sight settings to account for range. One reason I like 300 yard zeros is that the sight adjustments are a lot simpler (more consistent) You don't have to remember that some are up and some are down, they are all rear sight down.

 

[tod evans]

Even with factory loads, the .45-70 is around the same power as a 12 gauge slug... definitely nothing to sneeze at; while, handloaded, it can get damn close to .458 Win. Mag levels.

Never loaded my own ammo for it....interesting..

It'll knock down anything living in the Ozarks with factory loads..

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I can give you a shot group inside a quarter at 250 yards open sights with the AK.

A quarter is just under an inch. One inch at 250 yards is one third of one MOA. World class marksmen shoot between 1MOA and 3/4 MOA. Olympic world champions shoot around one half MOA. I call bullshit.

 

[tod evans]

A quarter is just under an inch. One inch at 250 yards is one third of one MOA. World class marksmen shoot between 1MOA and 3/4 MOA. Olympic world champions shoot around one half MOA. I call bullshit.

Been shooting my whole life and at 300yds I'm glad for a fairly tight dinner plate..

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Been shooting my whole life and at 300yds I'm glad for a fairly tight dinner plate..

Given unsupported firing positions (NOT bench rest shooting) certified "Rifle Expert" is defined as a 4MOA or under shooter, and so must contain their groups within 12" at 300 yards. A Platoon Designated Marksman will be between 8" and 10" at 300 yards. A Scout Sniper will be between 6" and 8" unsupported at 300 yards. Cut all of those groups roughly in half for supported positions (hasty bench rest), or by a little better than 3/5 for a full bench rest. That would put a professional scout sniper around 2" groups at 300 yards from a full bench rest.

 

[tod evans]

Given unsupported firing positions (NOT bench rest shooting) certified "Rifle Expert" is defined as a 4MOA or under shooter, and so must contain their groups within 12" at 300 yards. A Platoon Designated Marksman will be between 8" and 10" at 300 yards. A Scout Sniper will be between 6" and 8" unsupported at 300 yards. Cut all of those groups roughly in half for supported positions (hasty bench rest), or by a little better than 3/5 for a full bench rest. That would put a professional scout sniper around 2" groups at 300 yards from a full bench rest.

Guess I'd pass muster then:o

 

[Aeroneous]

Is there a "zero distance" people recommend for scope sighting? 250 yards? 300 yards?

The Air Force had us zero at 25 yards, the theory being that the bullet would be at the same height at both 25 and 300 yards due to gravity and the curve of the bullet. As someone else mentioned already though, you should zero the rifle for whatever distance you plan on using it at.

 

[pacelli]

Seriously informative thread, subscribed.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

The Air Force had us zero at 25 yards, the theory being that the bullet would be at the same height at both 25 and 300 yards due to gravity and the curve of the bullet. As someone else mentioned already though, you should zero the rifle for whatever distance you plan on using it at.

That's...not exactly. I know that's what they said, but the short range zero is just to put you on paper for a long range zero.

In the Marines, we put our rifles on the 200 yard sight setting (8/3-1) and then did our short zero at 36 yards.

The 25 yard short zero was developed by the Army to establish a rough 200 yard starting point when the common battle round was the 7.62 NATO. The 25 yard short zero is basically obsolete with the 5.56, but has been retained by the Army and the Air Force based on inertia alone.

With the 5.56 a 25 yard zero cowitnesses with 263 yards
With the 7.62 a 25 yard zero cowitnesses with 216 yards

With the 5.56 a 36 yard zero cowitnesses with 192.5 yards
With the 7.62 a 36 yard zero cowitnesses with 155 yards

When you zero an M-16 at 25 yards, you have a 263 yard zero, not a 300 yard zero. That is probably considered "close enough" for USAF security when the impact variance is only a couple inches high or low, and chances of engaging past 200 yards are somewhere between slim and none.

data...

M855 20" barrel MV 3100fps 25 yard zero
Impact at 200 yards is 2.86 inches above point of aim
Impact at 250 yards is 0.79 inches above point of aim
Impact at 300 yards is 2.86 inches below point of aim

M80 21" barrel MV 2700fps 25 yard zero
Impact at 200 yards is 0.84 inches above point of aim
Impact at 250 yards is 2.46 inches below point of aim
Impact at 300 yards is 7.61 inches below point of aim

M855 20" barrel MV 3100fps 36 yard zero
Impact at 200 yards is 0.3 inches below point of aim
Impact at 250 yards is 3.17 inches below point of aim
Impact at 300 yards is 7.61 inches below point of aim

M80 21" barrel MV 2700fps 36 yard zero
Impact at 150 yards is 0.17 inches above point of aim
Impact at 200 yards is 2.2 inches below point of aim
Impact at 250 yards is 6.25 inches below point of aim
Impact at 300 yards is 12.16 inches below point of aim