Hidden Cam: WA State GOP recommends voting on delegate slates for 3 of the 4 candidates

Acquiring delegates through Roberts rules of order is not what I mean by being an asshole. They're not really worried about Ron Paul getting 1144. They're worried about Ron Paul Supporters, after someone, presumably Romney, gets 1144, acting like assholes on the floor of the Convention, and outside the convention, causing a ruckus. It appears that that's the argument that the Romney people are using to try to persuade Gingrich supporters and Santorum supporters. Their argument isn't that Ron Paul is bad, the argument is that Ron Paul Supporters will not behave appropriately. And the reason they say that is because often we do act like assholes. NOBP is the kind of hostile message that creates, here's a word, blowback. Outward hostility, by Ron Paul Supporters, to all Republicans who are not Ron Paul is what is creating hostility to Ron Paul. What again, I ask, is the PURPOSE of NOBP, of using that as a rallying cry?

I've got to really disagree here. While you may not think acquiring delegates through RROO is not being an a@#hole, they (establishment, long time Rs) do! Almost all the RP supporters I have meet are some of the absolute best people to be around. We are passionate, but I have yet to find a supporter who has mouthed off, been belligerent, been a bully etc. in person without being attacked first. In fact, my integrity, sense of being a good person, my intelligence was attacked in person simply for being a RP supporter. A leader in the R party, without knowing me from Adam attacked me personally simply for being a supporter.

How in the world did voting one's conscience and standing up for principles, rather than voting Party over principle, get promoted to being an asshole?

The failing of this county is for individuals to vote Party over Principle. That is the cry of NOBP. He is the only man running for president in the major parties who will vote Principle over Party. Heck, he will vote principle over public opinion.

Finally, sure in the internet world a lot of RP flamers and jerks exists . . . but that is the nature of the internet a lot of xyz supporter idiots exist too.

To summarize to the Republican Party RP supporters are jerks, bullies, belligent, etc. simply for showing up, doing our civic duty and rocking the boat - not because we are real-world jerks.
 
Hmmm...so rejecting the status quo makes one an asshole? As opposed to the fraud and general assholiness exhibited by the establishment? Call me an asshole then.
 
I could actually converse with the Romney delegates, they mostly support Paul outside his foreign policy (and would vote for him if he ran on an economic platform).

Welcome aboard! BTW, whenever you hear that respond with: "I like George Washington except for his foreign policy"
 
You make a very good point, or rather points. I think there are a couple of things going on, one is that on average as a group we have a higher level of participation in the process than we do experience when compared with other groups. On balance I think this is a great thing for us but it does run us into some brambles for example the supporters who (with full good intentions) try to debate the legitimacy of talking points being used at another candidates speaking engagement.
I can't fault those people for their passion, or even for their logic as far as the issues are concerned, and I certainly like seeing two-faced public figures called out... but sadly that's usually not the most effective way to deal with a two-faced public figure.

I say the above because I think some of the point you are trying to make is getting lost in translation for a number of folks on these boards. I'll be the first to own up to forgetting sometimes (and specifically when it comes to NOBP) that this forum is/could be viewed by fence-sitters. GRC especially I treat a bit as a HQ for ideas and coordination of grassroots efforts and as such I often overlook that it is in fact a public forum.
You are correct, as much as I feel support for NOBP it's is not a tactically, or diplomatically sound statement to make in conversation with undecided voters or when collaborating with supporters outside our camp. Upon reflection I believe I will alter my phrasing henceforth --> Ron Paul 2012!
That at least for me serves all the same purposes emotionally an functionally as NOPB without as much potential for being misrepresented to our detriment.

Tactics isn't just about content (elaborating more than explaining, I'm confident you already know this) it's also about presentation. I think the friction you're getting has been largely a misunderstanding of your advocacy. You are (and correct me if I'm wrong here) saying the presentation needs refinement for our best advantage. And what I see happening is that it's being taken as a critique of the content being expressed.

Here's an example of how this might play out. I'm not going to vote for Romney, I couldn't do it because no matter what policy he said he'd support his record makes it so I can't trust him. <-- That's the content. However if I'm talking to a Romney supporter I'm not going to say "you're a sell out" or "how could you support Mitt what's wrong with you?" or "only banksters and crony-capitalists want Mitt". Speaking like that would be a waste, first off it's uncivil and reduces the likelihood that they'll consider any middle ground (for example in a caucus where Paul and Romney are outnumbered by Santorum). Secondly, and more importantly (IMO), aggressive statements like that usually overlook nuance for example someone who doesn't know about Romneys past record, or who has false information about Paul, who if they knew the facts would be happy to support Paul will likely never bother to listen to those facts if their first contact with a Paul supporter is abrasive at that level.
That's a loss for us, and those voters are most certainly out there. I've talked to a few (usually older) in this cycle and I've read about more.
I think we can win this nomination, but I also think it likely we'll need to gather soft support when we do it. And that means being able to reach out a hand to these misinformed voters and remind them we're aiming for many of the same things, to look at a Gingrich supporter and say "help us win this, we can take Obama out of the white house" not "line up behind us because Grinch doesn't have a chance".

Part of why Romney is so successful is that voters (including some insiders and delegates) believe he's the best shot to beat Obama. Honestly their wrong, Ron Paul has a stronger hand against Obama but we'll persuade more people of that by appealing to what they want, the aspects we have in common, rather than saying "it's our way or the highway". Paul elected is our way, so let's not focus on saying that let's focus what we say on how Paul Elected gets them what they want.
(Note: there are people, especially holding positions within the GOP that are flat out corrupt and need to go for them I say no quarter, but think of how we've heard stories about Santorum or Romney or Gingrich delegates who were outraged by being disenfranchised by those same corrupt party insiders. We're organized, we've got clout, and know how and will. How are those people going to see us? As a group of thugs who fought it out with the current thugs in power? Or as the ones who stood up for a fair process? Honestly some of them will view us both ways regardless of what we do, but we have the ability to effect how many see us in which light, is it not to our benefit to be seen as by the book as much as possible? When in doubt ask "what would Ron Paul do?" he's wouldn't back down, but he'd stand up in a classy way, and that I think is our mark to aim for. Even folks like me who have tempers to wrestle :o )


parocks, would you say I've accurately represented/understood the point you're making?

Again, a lot there, and I pretty much agree.

About "public forum".

I mention that because it "public forum" was the reason why decent threads got moved to hot topics in the last couple of days. I don't think
all that much of the public forum argument, evidence that Ron Paul Supporters are completely hostile to all the other Republican candidates
might be as good a reason to move a thread to hot topics as a thread containing info that the typical Romney lurker (but not Romney HQ) could use.

"Ron Paul 2012! That at least for me serves all the same purposes emotionally an functionally as NOPB without as much potential for being misrepresented to our detriment."

Agreed. NOBP says "I won't consider voting for your candidate, please vote for mine." Not very effective.

"I think we can win this nomination, but I also think it likely we'll need to gather soft support when we do it."
We DEFINITELY will need to gather soft support to do it.
I just don't see a scenario where we have 1144 pledged delegates or "stealth" delegates walking into Tampa.

"When in doubt ask "what would Ron Paul do?""
I don't agree entirely with this statement. Official Campaign vs Grassroots, etc etc. For instance, antiRomney arguments
being made that Ron Paul wouldn't make. But I don't want to argue this point too much, especially
since it's not a core point you're making.

"parocks, would you say I've accurately represented/understood the point you're making?"

Well, I don't disagree with most of what you've said.
 
[I have to jump in and say that I always love the several paragraph exchanges prompted by parocks; I still have fond memories of the many page discussion in one of the Illinois threads last week. I think it is great that he is able to maintain his opinionated fervency while still portraying detailed rationale. He is someone I am happy to disagree with as he does a GOOD job of representing the realism element needed in this forum without resorting to defeatism.]

I would like to add that I was a bit too quick on the trigger with the criticism on the Illinois thread, if I remember it right. You pointed out what you did, and it does seem like you did the right stuff. I think I was carrying over a basic theme from another thread, which was or is, that it's just going to be increasingly hard to get votes from people. You stepped it up in the right way, but the trend was not our friend.
 
But is it not also the case that a lot of the reports of 'disruptions caused by Ron Paul supporters'- at St Charles for instance- were just not true. That was a case of serious misrepresentation of what actually happened and spread of disinformation. That was not the fault of "rowdy" RP fans, but a deliberate attempt to fuel the anti - RP supporter sentiment that already exists. What i'm saying is yeah, you have a point but at the same time Ron Paul fans at large, while passionate, are not the crazy, dishonest hijackers they're painted out to be.

In any case, I don't hold it against any RP fan or delegate if they get emotional and upset at the systems attempts to marginalize them. We are human after all. But, I do understand where you are coming from. To get other supporters on board one needs to take a logical approach and appeal to peoples reasoning, even if that can be tough at times. Gandhi actually struggled with the same thing Ron Paul is struggling with now, to a different extent of course, but his supporters were so passionate that they threatened to cross the line at times. Of course he reined them in, and Ron has tried to do the same thing at times and lead by example. But its human nature and when people believe strongly in a wrong that should be righted it is inevitable that some will be very passionate, aggressive (defensive) and act outside societies accepted norms.

I don't think those kind of things are what they're worried about. We're talking about people worried about things like booing Romney's speech Thursday night primetime, rallies, protests, things like that.

You mention that theres an antiRP supporter sentiment that already exists. That's because we have been doing stuff wrong. I guess what I'm saying is "look, the chickens have come home to roost." Our bad behavior in the past. In 2011 and earlier, not in 2012 conventions, is now biting us in the ass. I'm not recommending that we not fight in these conventions where delegates are when fighting gets us delegates. But we now know that us being assholes because that's what we enjoy doing (going to a Gingrich event, arguing with cops, whining and complaining, putting it on the internet, for one) hurts Ron Paul and we should stop.

Please don't use Gandhi as an example. I can go back and find threads where I pointed out that Gandhi wasn't an American Politician. Ron Paul is an American Politician. There aren't lessons from Gandhi to be applied to Ron Paul. This "first they ... then you win" stuff just doesn't describe American Politics.
 
Hmmm...so rejecting the status quo makes one an asshole? As opposed to the fraud and general assholiness exhibited by the establishment? Call me an asshole then.

Nah, I mean the general assholishness that we have been exhibiting since 2007. Not a good fight at a convention.

Ron Paul Supporters can't be hated in Tampa if we're going to win there.
 
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I don't Understand, in my opinion the only people who think Ron Paul supporters are rude and punks, are those who are hard core supporters of the establishment!! That's it!! They hate Ron Paul supporters for one reason and one reason alone and that reason is because they fear a Ron Paul victory!! Since they fear a Ron Paul victory, they HATE anyone who is spreading the Ron Paul message because they see it as a major threat to their gravy train!! I would have a very very hard time believing that people who are just regular Americans, and are not following politics every single day, no matter who they support, they will not label Ron Paul supporters as aholes!!!! So I disagree with you big time Parroks.
 
I've got to really disagree here. While you may not think acquiring delegates through RROO is not being an a@#hole, they (establishment, long time Rs) do! Almost all the RP supporters I have meet are some of the absolute best people to be around. We are passionate, but I have yet to find a supporter who has mouthed off, been belligerent, been a bully etc. in person without being attacked first. In fact, my integrity, sense of being a good person, my intelligence was attacked in person simply for being a RP supporter. A leader in the R party, without knowing me from Adam attacked me personally simply for being a supporter.

How in the world did voting one's conscience and standing up for principles, rather than voting Party over principle, get promoted to being an asshole?

The failing of this county is for individuals to vote Party over Principle. That is the cry of NOBP. He is the only man running for president in the major parties who will vote Principle over Party. Heck, he will vote principle over public opinion.

Finally, sure in the internet world a lot of RP flamers and jerks exists . . . but that is the nature of the internet a lot of xyz supporter idiots exist too.

To summarize to the Republican Party RP supporters are jerks, bullies, belligent, etc. simply for showing up, doing our civic duty and rocking the boat - not because we are real-world jerks.

We have been assholes since 2007. That's the problem. Now, when we're just fighting for our candidate, we're called assholes, because we've been assholes so very often.

We are stuck between a rock and a hard place here, because we have to continue to fight for delegates in these conventions.

What I guess I'm saying is that being an asshole unnecessarily should be avoided.

We need to persuade people in Tampa. Doing extra asshole stuff is not the way to go. We should ask what the PURPOSE is. With getting delegates, the purpose is clear. Going to where another candidate is, and holding a Ron Paul sign is being an asshole, and I don't know what the PURPOSE of that is.

We have to make friends here. There will be 2287 delegates in Tampa, and we need 1144. We won't have 1144 when we get there. Being an asshole, unnecessarily, does not help us win votes in Tampa.

We might start doing things that make other candidates delegates like us. <1144 is necessary, and people talking about vote Santorum to stop Romney will get Santorum people to think of Ron Paul supporters as less of assholes (maybe possibly). I'm not arguing that that specifically must be done, just that we should be thinking in terms of repairing our image. That's one possible way to do that.
 
I don't Understand, in my opinion the only people who think Ron Paul supporters are rude and punks, are those who are hard core supporters of the establishment!! That's it!! They hate Ron Paul supporters for one reason and one reason alone and that reason is because they fear a Ron Paul victory!! Since they fear a Ron Paul victory, they HATE anyone who is spreading the Ron Paul message because they see it as a major threat to their gravy train!! I would have a very very hard time believing that people who are just regular Americans, and are not following politics every single day, no matter who they support, they will not label Ron Paul supporters as aholes!!!! So I disagree with you big time Parroks.

Don't we boo at debates? Random people watching TV would think "Ron Paul Supporters Are Assholes". We boo and yell and scream and do a wide variety of assholish things all the time. And not only the hard core establishment fans, but just regular Republicans catch on to this.

Ron Paul Supporters have a terrible image problem.
 
"We"? Speak for yourself.

Right, "we" wouldn't include you, because you're 2012. You shouldn't be blamed for throwing a snowball at Hannity in Manchester in January 2008. You weren't there. I was. Not right there when that happened, but less than 5 block away.

Throwing a snowball at Hannity is an example of assholish behavior.
 
Don't we boo at debates? Random people watching TV would think "Ron Paul Supporters Are Assholes". We boo and yell and scream and do a wide variety of assholish things all the time. And not only the hard core establishment fans, but just regular Republicans catch on to this.

Ron Paul Supporters have a terrible image problem.

Good luck trying to tell anyone of a libertarian mind to shut up, lie back and enjoy it.
You are advocating letting the establishment define actions.
 
Right, "we" wouldn't include you, because you're 2012. You shouldn't be blamed for throwing a snowball at Hannity in Manchester in January 2008. You weren't there. I was. Not right there when that happened, but less than 5 block away.

Throwing a snowball at Hannity is an example of assholish behavior.


Actually I was an RP supporter in 2007 and I would have lined up to throw a snowball at that asshole.
 
Don't we boo at debates? Random people watching TV would think "Ron Paul Supporters Are Assholes". We boo and yell and scream and do a wide variety of assholish things all the time. And not only the hard core establishment fans, but just regular Republicans catch on to this.

Ron Paul Supporters have a terrible image problem.

When dissenting voices against those in power are ignored and suppressed, then the people get louder. It's really that simple. Revolutions are messy and you haven't seen anything yet. Wait till they turn their guns on us because the people won't shut up. Will that be our fault also?
 
It's not hardcore establishment republicans that think we're punks and assholes. Go out and talk to people, get involved. Ron Paul has a bad reputation, and letting them know we'll only vote for Paul gives them no incentive to adopt our ideas.
In Washington State, many people were apprehensive when I told the I support Paul, because of the experience at the 2008 caucus. Get rid of the our way or the highway mentality. We can feel that way, but saying it to the Republican Party is idiotic.
If you're only out to argue with local republican volunteers, I can't see how you'd think you're helping.
We have to get involved, we need to be the caucus chairs, and donate the time to take over the volunteer positions. But we have to speak with civility, people are receptive to logically coherent ideas.
People only change their minds when they believe they've realized something, or they're told from an authority figure. Right now, Dr. Paul is viewed as a joke, and it's up to us to help him earn the respect he's overdue.
 
Don't we boo at debates? Random people watching TV would think "Ron Paul Supporters Are Assholes". We boo and yell and scream and do a wide variety of assholish things all the time. And not only the hard core establishment fans, but just regular Republicans catch on to this.

Ron Paul Supporters have a terrible image problem.

Don't we boo at debates??? Well don't newt supporters in south Carolina cheer when newt says KILL EVERYONE?? I don't understand your point?? But yet you think we are the ones being labeled??
 
Like every other misrepresentation and misperception about RP, RPSAA is heavily influenced by MSM. They can and will create any perception that they want. Are there supporters that misbehave? Of course. Every campaign has them.

Just like the meme that all RP supporters are pot-heads, RPSAA is a perception that may have some basis in reality, but is also fueled by MSM agenda, and since that is not something we can control, we shouldn't waste too much time and effort focusing on it, IMHO.

Moral outrage is a very strong motivator. RP supporters are passionate, and they won't back down. This is one of our greatest strengths.
 
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