Hidden Cam: WA State GOP recommends voting on delegate slates for 3 of the 4 candidates

[tbone717]

And I'm going to disagree that we don't have as many delegates as we think. We do and we will have more. Getting involved in local GOP and getting other candidates elected is a very important part of this process, agreed. But this is the Ron Paul Forums. Our ultimate purpose is to get him the nomination. Anything else is secondary. Not less important, but secondary.

I say this because there are some that believe we are on a pace to have 1144 people at the convention that are going to vote for Paul if there is a second ballot. I have done the math and I don't believe that is possible. However, I think we will have a decent showing and will be able to have influence at the RNC as the campaign has stated several times that is one of their goals.

 

[tbone717]

It is their rules that take the ultimate decision out of the popular votes hands, and into those of the delegates.

However, I don't even see how you can say we're "mucking" anything by playing by the rules, when they're blatantly disregarding their own rules in order to disenfrachise us.

If they wanted party unity, then they'd be making sure the Paul supporters are included and respected for being interested enough to become a part of the process. However, the establishment and media have chosen the route of ignoring, marginalizing, and now even disenfranchising just to maintain their control over the 2 party system... Even if we were "mucking" that up (which again makes no sense when we're going by their rules that they're not follwing when it doesn't suit them), I'm not sure why we should feel at all bad about that.

What's the alternative, to just let the establishment choose whoever they want, with no regard to the popular vote? You're absolutely correct that we would not be happy if the shoe was on the other foot, but we'd know better to blame the way the system has been set up to allow for that, than to blame the candidate like you're implying.

And we're big boys here, and we've done jsut fine with combatting media lies like the racist newsletters, so I'm not going to get concerned that the public doesn't like it.... In fact, if it does achieve temporary "bad publicity" for the movement, this all will bring to light a corrupt and controllnig nature of the delegate process, and I'm okay with the repurcussions that might have.

Were'nt you the one here before we actually had video evidence that said that if we had proof of fraud, that we should do something about it? Well, that evidence is starting to pile up, so I think it's rather convenient that you're now changing your tune to justify fraud and disenfranchisement.

Well we are mucking it up in the sense that historically, someone who has had a showing in the vote totals like Paul has would have suspended by this point. However, because Paul continues to get donations, and has a enthusiastic base of support, he is able to continue. Typically, a candidate's financial and grassroots support would have dried up by now.

And yes, this is video evidence. I have also been the one that stated that if there is credible evidence of fraud that it should be taken to the state attorney general's office. If a crime was committed then charges need to be brought forth. I am not an attorney, nor am I well versed in WA law to comment if this is a case of fraud of not.

 

[PauliticsPolitics]

Well we are mucking it up in the sense that historically, someone who has had a showing in the vote totals like Paul has would have suspended by this point. However, because Paul continues to get donations, and has a enthusiastic base of support, he is able to continue. Typically, a candidate's financial and grassroots support would have dried up by now.

And yes, this is video evidence. I have also been the one that stated that if there is credible evidence of fraud that it should be taken to the state attorney general's office. If a crime was committed then charges need to be brought forth. I am not an attorney, nor am I well versed in WA law to comment if this is a case of fraud of not.

I don't think this is fraud or anything illegal. Making slates of delegates and trying to convince people to vote for delegates is how the process goes.
I doubt the guy was lying, I'm sure the slate did have delegates who claim to represent the 3 non-paul candidates. (who knows in what proportion.)
Regardless, this is interesting evidence to show that there are people actively out there trying to stop us, even if it means Romney&Santorum&Gingrich versus Paul.
But of course, we knew this was how it was long ago.

 

[sailingfail]

how is this fraud? Isn't this what we were doing. Straw poll was non-binding. No fraud here.

 

[PolicyReader]

I suppose. Remember that the primary process if for choosing among a slate of candidates to be the one to run in November against the primary opposition. Which in this case is Obama. The convention is designed as a means for the party (and both are this way) to showcase their candidate and their ideals before a national audience. Sort of like one big commercial. It is not designed for a small uprising of people to have their moment in the sun.

We are kind of mucking up the process with being able to get some delegates slots. Though at the end of the day, I honestly think we are going to have far more than estimated by the media, but far less than estimated by some here.

We have to put ourselves in their shoes sometimes. If Paul had won IA, NH, etc and was the presumptive nominee. If we were the ones in leadership in the party and our candidate won the nomination outright. Would we want a group of 200 or so stray delegates chanting "Newt, Newt, Newt" while Paul was on the stage giving his acceptance speech?

I'm talking broader spectrum than this race or it's direct implications. The very fact that the early process is more of a show case than a debate is flawed.
What candidates have a real shot that don't come out of the two major parties? What other national stage for a conversation on the issues is there if it's not allowed/supposed to be had before the situation is 'red v blue' may the lessor of two evils win.

I'll take chants of Newt, or even Santorum any day so long as they are part of a process that allows for people to be and become involved and fosters an honest and frank address of the issues and policy considerations rather than a focus on fictional "unity" to PR spin reality in a calculated effort to foster/constrain support from a wider base than what a candidates actions and issue stances would/could earn in a more open process.

The way things are done now is a contributing factor to the "lessor of two evils" mentality and voting practice and that mentality stands high on the list of things which created the mess our nation faces. It's galling how little understanding of the issues and process people have, but it's no surprising in the face of the way "business and usual" is conducted by the left and right wings of the Status Quo party.

It's time to vote the "lessor of two evils" method out of politics and that means "business as usual" can't be anymore.

 

[TheGrinch]

Well we are mucking it up in the sense that historically, someone who has had a showing in the vote totals like Paul has would have suspended by this point. However, because Paul continues to get donations, and has a enthusiastic base of support, he is able to continue. Typically, a candidate's financial and grassroots support would have dried up by now.

And yes, this is video evidence. I have also been the one that stated that if there is credible evidence of fraud that it should be taken to the state attorney general's office. If a crime was committed then charges need to be brought forth. I am not an attorney, nor am I well versed in WA law to comment if this is a case of fraud of not.

WEll, it sure as hell is corrupt. So if that's not illegal, then that leaves the most obvious option to deal with it... Make it known to the public they have to answer to...

The legal system hasn't exactly done a good job of delivering us justice, when they just end up throwing out the slates, maybe someone steps down, but ultimately it's swept under the rug.

But it's evident that what allowed them a redo in Missouri was the video evidence and public outcry about how corrupt the first one was... I gave you this example in another thread, but remember that not 1 congressman who supported SOPA backed down until the internet players exposed it to the public, and then they started dropping like flies, disassociating themselves from it.

The only way you're going to get anything done about this, is to continue to expose to the public how dirty the inner-workings of the political process are... I don't give a damn if it's legal or not. Disenfrachisement, fraud, corruption, whatever, is never okay, and is absolutely something we need to let the public know about, with no regard to our own selfish reservations.

This isn't about Dr. Paul. It's about us. We've not put in all this time, money and effort, jsut for them to piss all over us in every single state, in what is increasingly looks like a coup against us.

 

[tbone717]

I don't think this is fraud or anything illegal. Making slates of delegates and trying to convince people to vote for delegates is how the process goes.
I doubt the guy was lying, I'm sure the slate did have delegates who claim to represent the 3 non-paul candidates. (who knows in what proportion.)
Regardless, this is interesting evidence to show that there are people actively out there trying to stop us, even if it means Romney&Santorum&Gingrich versus Paul.
But of course, we knew this was how it was long ago.

Right and again, I am trying to leave beside my personal bias and look at it from their perspective. You have a small group of people that is supporting a candidate that most people (other than Paul supporters) believe has no chance of winning the nomination. And while we are playing by the rules, we are just being a huge pain in the ass, as they see it. Typically, these delegate proceedings go pretty smoothly, but our insertion into the process has made this year a major headache for folks that run these things. And again, they see it as a nuisance from a contingency supporting a candidate that historically would have dropped out by now.

 

[tbone717]

WEll, it sure as hell is corrupt. So if that's not illegal, then that leaves the most obvious option to deal with it... Make it known to the public they have to answer to...

The legal system hasn't exactly done a good job of delivering us justice, when they just end up throwing out the slates, maybe someone steps down, but ultimately it's swept under the rug.

But it's evident that what allowed them a redo in Missouri was the video evidence and public outcry about how corrupt the first one was... I gave you this example in another thread, but remember that not 1 congressman who supported SOPA backed down until the internet players exposed it to the public, and then they started dropping like flies, disassociating themselves from it.

The only way you're going to get anything done about this, is to continue to expose to the public how dirty the inner-workings of the political process are... I don't give a damn if it's legal or not. Disenfrachisement, fraud, corruption, whatever, is never okay, and is absolutely something we need to let the public know about, with no regard to our own selfish reservations.

This isn't about Dr. Paul. It's about us. We've not put in all this time, money and effort, jsut for them to piss all over us in every single state, in what is increasingly looks like a coup against us.

See my explanation in post 27.

I guess my only concern with all of this is the eventual outcome and how this will effect our efforts in the future. Honestly, I am not sure if the way we are going about this is going to help us or hurt us in the future. I suppose time will tell on that answer.

 

[twofootzero]

just how much corruption and shenanigans is needed for this shit to go on national news? seems theres trickery in every state and every other county?

I don't think this is just about exposing the GOP anymore, it is is shaping up to expose the GOP, the establishment, and the main stream media. Very interesting times ahead!

 

[UtahApocalypse]

5:20 "[If Ron Paul delegates are elected] then that state caucus will be disrupting... it will get on the national news, and there will be terrible consequences for our state, and our state party."[/B]

The fact that the GOP is blatantly doing this tactics now is going to spark a REAL Revolution soon which will bring problems to people.

 

[TheGrinch]

Right and again, I am trying to leave beside my personal bias and look at it from their perspective. You have a small group of people that is supporting a candidate that most people (other than Paul supporters) believe has no chance of winning the nomination. And while we are playing by the rules, we are just being a huge pain in the ass, as they see it. Typically, these delegate proceedings go pretty smoothly, but our insertion into the process has made this year a major headache for folks that run these things. And again, they see it as a nuisance from a contingency supporting a candidate that historically would have dropped out by now.

Cool. Then hopefully they see how serious we are.. Just because they may want to pretend that this is just a cult of personality around Dr. Paul, we're fighting for our ideals, so stop acting like we just need to be so concerned about being liked that we don't accomplish anything. Maybe, just maybe, gasp, if people realize how corrupt the system is, they mgiht actually realize that we're not so crazy about the other things we've been saying with regard to the Fed and the banks.

Yes, we all know this movement is for the long haul too, but please, how about you fulfill your promise to leave this forum and campaign for your local candidates, if you don't have the will to fight for the delegation and nomination like we all still are. "Let it not be said that we did nothing".

 

[kathy88]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TheGrinchWhoStoleDC again.

I'll try again later

 

[tbone717]

Cool. Then hopefully they see how serious we are.. Just because they may want to pretend that this is just a cult of personality around Dr. Paul, we're fighting for our ideals, so stop acting like we just need to be so concerned about being liked that we don't accomplish anything. Maybe, just maybe, gasp, if people realize how corrupt the system is, they mgiht actually realize that we're not so crazy about the other things we've been saying with regard to the Fed and the banks.

Yes, we all know this movement is for the long haul too, but please, how about you fulfill your promise to leave this forum and campaign for your local candidates, if you don't have the will to fight for the delegation and nomination like we all still are. "Let it not be said that we did nothing".

Fair enough. I have been thinking it is time to distance myself from this campaign anyway. While I was part of the earliest Paul draft movement back in 06, I am not pleased with the direction this campaign and the grassroots has taken, particularly over the last month or so. Essentially, the worst elements of the grassroots have taken over, and it is sad to see this.

My personal feeling is that a lot of this is going to do more harm than good in our ability to return the GOP to its core principles.

Best of luck to you all.

 

[PolicyReader]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TheGrinchWhoStoleDC again.

I'll try again later

I just got that same message.

 

[TheGrinch]

Fair enough. I have been thinking it is time to distance myself from this campaign anyway. While I was part of the earliest Paul draft movement back in 06, I am not pleased with the direction this campaign and the grassroots has taken, particularly over the last month or so. Essentially, the worst elements of the grassroots have taken over, and it is sad to see this.

My personal feeling is that a lot of this is going to do more harm than good in our ability to return the GOP to its core principles.

Best of luck to you all.

Methinks you're either intentionally hyperbolic, or have a fundamental misunderstanding of what this movement is fighting for and againt.

 

[TheGrinch]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TheGrinchWhoStoleDC again.

I'll try again later

I just got that same message.

There you all go worrying about reputation again ... Unlike tbone, we don't have to be liked for us to fight for what's right.

 

[gte811i]

Right and again, I am trying to leave beside my personal bias and look at it from their perspective. You have a small group of people that is supporting a candidate that most people (other than Paul supporters) believe has no chance of winning the nomination. And while we are playing by the rules, we are just being a huge pain in the ass, as they see it. Typically, these delegate proceedings go pretty smoothly, but our insertion into the process has made this year a major headache for folks that run these things. And again, they see it as a nuisance from a contingency supporting a candidate that historically would have dropped out by now.

Sorry, this is comment is ridiculous.

I used to wonder how the insiders and establishment became the establishment. It's actually a really easy process. The fact is most people do not get involved in politics. This allows the few to dictate and control the debate, the candidates, the issues etc.

Sure the establishment is mad, we are rocking their boat. Paul has allowed people to tap into the secret of how insiders become insiders. They have their power and control. They've always known that it takes only a few people 100-200 people in major urban counties to throw out the old and put in the new. They've just always assumed that people are too complacent to actually do it; now that people are actually getting involved they are scared. They believe that their views represent the majority . . .well sorry we don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic were a dedicated minority can have a voice and can completely change the political discussion of this country.

If the majority doesn't like the minorities views, one simple solution exists, for the majority to get involved. If they don't get involved they just need to shut up and stop complaining that the minority is "hijacking" the process.

 

[gte811i]

Fair enough. I have been thinking it is time to distance myself from this campaign anyway. While I was part of the earliest Paul draft movement back in 06, I am not pleased with the direction this campaign and the grassroots has taken, particularly over the last month or so. Essentially, the worst elements of the grassroots have taken over, and it is sad to see this.

My personal feeling is that a lot of this is going to do more harm than good in our ability to return the GOP to its core principles.

Best of luck to you all.

Quick question before you go . . . are you involved in your local GOP? If not then all your talk, is just that talk instead of action.
If you are involved in your GOP, why are you so hostile to more liberty folks becoming involved in the process and taking over local parties to return the GOP to its constitutional roots?

 

[sailingaway]

I say this because there are some that believe we are on a pace to have 1144 people at the convention that are going to vote for Paul if there is a second ballot. I have done the math and I don't believe that is possible. However, I think we will have a decent showing and will be able to have influence at the RNC as the campaign has stated several times that is one of their goals.

If someone else has LESS than Ron they might team up with Ron on a second ballot, or their supporters might. That is what happened in NV last time, the Romney supporters didn't like McCain so voted for Ron's delegates at the state convention. They don't have to be Ron's delegates if they like Ron better than the other alternative.

 

[sailingaway]

Right and again, I am trying to leave beside my personal bias and look at it from their perspective. You have a small group of people that is supporting a candidate that most people (other than Paul supporters) believe has no chance of winning the nomination. And while we are playing by the rules, we are just being a huge pain in the ass, as they see it. Typically, these delegate proceedings go pretty smoothly, but our insertion into the process has made this year a major headache for folks that run these things. And again, they see it as a nuisance from a contingency supporting a candidate that historically would have dropped out by now.

we are a pain in the ass WHEN they break the rules. They don't like it and say we caused trouble -- by making htem stick to their rules. If you think we shouldn't even do that, why shouldn't anyone of principle roll over and give up? How would we ever win? The ones cheating now always will.