Help With Parents who

[Tarzan]

The socratic method is only duplicitous if one is trying to hide ones premises or motives.
If one is up-front about one's position, it can be edifying.

And this is an example of how one sides premises are disguised as 'honesty' in the Socratic method. The second sentence gives away the true and underlying thought. By using "edifying" it demonstrates that the presenter thinks that you need to be instructed and educated. So, the basic premise of the presenter upon entering the argument can be translated as follows: "I am right, you are wrong and I will show you how you are wrong... you need to be schooled".

Again, no honest discussion... just an underlying premise the presenter will not abandon or even acknowledge (even to themselves) as they attempt to win the argument and convince you they are right.

This is not a method I would recommend using with your family, friends or anyone with whom you are trying to have an honest exchange. You need to keep yourself open to other ideas as well.

 

[jmdrake]

My mom voted for Obama in 2008. The last time we talked politics I just looked her in the eye and said "Mom! You've just got to vote for Ron Paul. The country is going to hell in a handbasket and Ron Paul is the only one saying anything that could fix it." To my surprise she said "I think you're right. I might just vote for Ron Paul."

I didn't have to sell my mom on foreign policy, but it seems you don't have to sell your parents on it either. Still if your parents like Michael Savage this might be helpful. Here Savage calls the Iraq war probably the biggest foreign policy failure of all time.



Also what's your dad's view on global warming? Does he know about the Pelosi / Gingrich commercial?



Still, those are negative angles. The most important thing to point out is the positives. The bottom line is we can't afford to keep doing business as usual because we are broke. Democrats can't fix the problem because they love to spend on domestic issues. Current republicans can't fix it because they love to spend of foreign policy. Each side excuses the other's spending habits. They "compromise" by both sides agreeing to spend more and raising the debt ceiling. Ron Paul is the only one who can fix the debt crisis because he's the only one who will put everything on the table to be cut.

 

[Tarzan]

I have no specific tips, only to offer some moral support. I somehow converted both of my parents and they are both voting for Ron Paul in 2012. I don't really know what worked, but I just know it did. Just keep talking and talking, showing vids, and they'll come around. My dad is almost as passionate as I am now!

Good luck!

And some times it just takes time! Don't expect to 'convert' them in a frenzy of Ron Paul zeal. It will often take a repetition of the ideas and positions of Ron Paul before they are considered and possibly accepted. Be patient, be consistent and be respectful. It took your parents a long time to reach the positions they have. It will take time and they will each need to personally reconsider their current thinking if they are to become Ron Paul supporters.

Use Son of Detroit's example and don't be reactionary...
good job SOD (hah... SOD... sorry, make myself laugh)

 

[specsaregood]

Just tell em straight out, "If you ever want to see your future grandkids, then you best vote for and support Dr. Paul for president."

 

[Lymeade-Lady]

I wouldn't worry too much about your parents--Bachmann and Newt seem decent in what you hear on the debates (thus saying your parents have decent taste) BUT aren't likely to be in the race or at least not viable candidates when it comes down to it. Also, Ron Paul has the best chance of beating Obama b/c he appeals to the same crowd that was so excited about Obama. He has an enthusiastic following and better numbers than Newt or Bachmann. Just keep sharing your excitement. AND keep asking their thoughts--they have a lot more knowledge and experience than you, so have different perspectives. You could even offer to do a research paper on Ron Paul and the areas they are concerned about. OR a letter to the editor for your local paper. They might agree to seriously consider your thoughts if you'd write up a formal paper on it (thought I'd ask about that before going to the effort!)

 

[Tarzan]

Just tell em straight out, "If you ever want to see your future grandkids, then you best vote for and support Dr. Paul for president."

Good answer!
germane part is at 2:15... sorry, shortest one I could find

 

[WilliamC]

And this is an example of how one sides premises are disguised as 'honesty' in the Socratic method. The second sentence gives away the try and underlying thought. By using "edifying" it demonstrates that the presenter thinks that you need to be instructed and educated. So, the basic premise of the presenter upon entering the argument can be translated as follows: "I am right, you are wrong and I will show you how you are wrong... you need to be schooled".

By edifying I mean mutually enlightening. Both parties understand each other better.

Again, no honest discussion... just an underlying premise the presenter will not abandon or even acknowledge (even to themselves) as they attempt to win the argument and convince you they are right.

This is not a method I would recommend using with your family, friends or anyone with whom you are trying to have an honest exchange. You need to keep yourself open to other ideas as well.

You have a problem with self reflection.

I like having my assumptions challenged.

 

[Tarzan]

By edifying I mean mutually enlightening. Both parties understand each other better.

Of course, this is not the definition of the word "edifying". It has nothing to do with 'both parties'... it is about enlightening or uplifting the other party by definition. As part of the discourse one side will attempt to use or, even better, get you to define a word or term based on their directed questioning. To stay in a Socratic debate (note I use the words argument or debate rather than discussion) you must always be on the attack.

You have a problem with self reflection.
I like having my assumptions challenged.

When all else fails you attack the other side and try to use terms that might insult them (e.g. my purported "problem with self reflection"). If you can anger your opponent you can throw off their thinking and leave them vulnerable to an unguarded response and a subsequent attack. It is like a chess match where you attempt to remain on the attack... but guard your defenses VERY carefully. One wrong defensive move can leave you open to an attack that will decimate your position and you will lose the argument. The "I like having my assumptions challenged" line is a clever one. It can be disarming as it indicates self reflection. But, don't fall for the trap. None of the assumptions (to which he now admits, see how it works) have changed and his post shows no actual consideration or openness to actual discussion. It is, in short a ruse.


Now, WilliamC and I could probably go back and forth on this for quite some time (with no winner declared). But, neither of us are going to actually change our minds or give the other's position any thought whatsoever. That would result in mental weakening and lead to defeat in the adversarial, Socratic method. Now, I did graciously pass on the obvious attack when the word edifying was used and redefined... I also left the word assumption hanging in the wind... we all know what happens when you assume. Regardless, I honestly believe the Socratic Method is unworthy when trying to have an honest discussion... He may believe it is and we will probably never see eye to eye on this. Our disagreement does not matter to the point of winning your parents over to RP which I believe is the real issue here.

Ignore both of us (except me, of course, because I am right)... speak with your parents honestly and consider some of the other thoughts and ideas that have been posted in this thread.


this method (Socratic) is taught in schools, in debate and used by lawyers...
it demonstrates why lawyers will be some of the first against the wall when the revolution comes
as you can see it is no wonder they executed Socrates... if only they had done it sooner!

The method is used quite a bit on these forums... if you see it being used my best advise is to walk away

 

[WilliamC]

Of course, this is not the definition of the word "edifying". It has nothing to do with 'both parties'... it is about enlightening or uplifting the other party by definition. As part of the discourse one side will attempt to use or, even better, get you to define a word or term based on their directed questioning. To stay in a Socratic debate (note I use the words argument or debate rather than discussion) you must always be on the attack.



When all else fails you attack the other side and try to use terms that might insult them (e.g. my purported "problem with self reflection"). If you can anger your opponent you can throw off their thinking and leave them vulnerable to an unguarded response and a subsequent attack. It is like a chess match where you attempt to remain on the attack... but guard your defenses VERY carefully. One wrong defensive move can leave you open to an attack that will decimate your position and you will lose the argument. The "I like having my assumptions challenged" line is a clever one. It can be disarming as it indicates self reflection. But, don't fall for the trap. None of the assumptions (to which he now admits, see how it works) have changed and his post shows no actual consideration or openness to actual discussion. It is, in short a ruse.


Now, WilliamC and I could probably go back and forth on this for quite some time (with no winner declared). But, neither of us are going to actually change our minds or give the other's position any thought whatsoever. That would result in mental weakening and lead to defeat in the adversarial, Socratic method. Now, I did graciously pass on the obvious attack when the word edifying was used and redefined... I also left the word assumption hanging in the wind... we all know what happens when you assume. Regardless, I honestly believe the Socratic Method is unworthy when trying to have an honest discussion... He may believe it is and we will probably never see eye to eye on this. Our disagreement does not matter to the point of winning your parents over to RP which I believe is the real issue here.

Ignore both of us (except me, of course, because I am right)... speak with your parents honestly and consider some of the other thoughts and ideas that have been posted in this thread.


this method (Socratic) is taught in schools, in debate and used by lawyers...
it demonstrates why lawyers will be some of the first against the wall when the revolution comes
as you can see it is no wonder they executed Socrates... if only they had done it sooner!

The method is used quite a bit on these forums... if you see it being used my best advise is to walk away

Aha! You think I'm not being edified! Ye're wrong! Now I'm gonna get poetic on your a$$!

If you don't like being questioned as to the why's and whatfor's of your beliefs then you're missing out on a whole lot of self-awareness


Some people never question the whys and whatfors of life
They accept as sheer necessity the struggle, pain and strife
"Tis is the way it's always been 'tis the way it will always be"
Are the answers that they give but that's not good enough for me.

How is it that these people are all so blind to what is real?
Are they so weighed down by chains of angst that they truly feel
The only road left open is the path of least resistance
And that merely to endure life's blows is the meaning of existence?

If only people would be honest about what they know inside
And not be frightened to reveal what they desperately try to hide
Maybe then we would finally see that we are really quite the same
And to deny each other anything not evil is insane.

Good people never let yourselves believe that it is best
To lower your expectations and settle for anything less
Than all that you've ever wished for and for everything you’ve ever dreamed
You only get one chance at life so make the most of human being.

 

[Tarzan]

Aha! You think I'm not being edified! Ye're wrong! Now I'm gonna get poetic on your a$$!
If you don't like being questioned as to the why's and whatfor's of your beliefs then you're missing out on a whole lot of self-awareness

So... to put it another way "The unexamined life is not worth living."... now, I wonder who said that?


OK... to break from this pattern here is a genuine answer with no role (or game playing). I have been through this discussion several times in my life (I'm old). Am I willing to reexamine it again now... no, not really. To continue having the same philosophical debates (either internally or externally) really limits your time for learning other things. Once you know how to win at Tic-Tac-Toe you don't need to repeatedly revisit it. It is one of those "been there, done that" episodes from much earlier in my life that I do not need to repeat. (this is where you say I am old and set in my ways... so be it... I would, of course, say I see it for what it is)

I honestly believe the Socratic Method was and is misused with great regularity merely to win an argument and regardless of the cost... without honest discussion (the cost being the ill will and future mistrust between the parties). We see it used regularly on this forum. People who are absolutely convinced they are correct in their position and will use every technique in an attempt to win. Rather than an honest discussion that might provoke genuine thought on a particular subject. The method manages to achieve more enemies than supporters... until somebody ends up drinking hemlock.

So... the SM is not for me, thanks (poetry, notwithstanding). I never had any desire to be a lawyer though I did participate in debate while in school (NFL). This method, like repeated chanting of a religious mantra, can change your thinking pattern and the way your brain operates. After studying some of those exchanges and witnessing others I decided some time ago that it was not a thinking pattern I wished for myself. And, keep an eye out on these forums (and other places) to see it in use and witness the ill will and lack of resolution it produces.



Oh... and if you want to see the immediate repercussions of using the SM on someone close to you... try it on your wife or girlfriend. But, make sure you have removed all sharp, blunt or throwable objects from easy reach... and you have an optional place to spend the night. And, for heavens sake, don't drink something she has prepared for you. We know how that worked out for Socrates.

 

[WilliamC]

Maybe that's why I'm not the most popular guy at parties then.

And here I thought it was my halatosis or something.

Actually, I'm just annoying!

Thanks TZ, I'm not trying to irritate you or anyone else, but I do enjoy debate and learning about other folks, and occasionally I even still learn something new about myself.

Like that I'm annoying

 

[Tarzan]

Thanks for actually listening and considering!

Yes, you may be annoying at parties... but, keep taking the breath mints just in case.


See... I can't resist making glib remarks that are often misinterpreted... so, I am annoying too!


We Few, We Proud, We Band of Annoying SOBs

 

[WilliamC]

Anyone who uses zoso for a logo is ok in my book.

This is for you TZ, I wrote it back in the mid-90's right after the heavens gate cult suicided over the comet Hale-Bopp.

Start the video and read along.

Enjoy...




There's a prophet who's sure
That the stars all have souls
And he's sailing a comet to heaven
When he gets there he knows
If he wears his black clothes
With a wish he can be with his brethren
And he's sailing a comet to heaven
There's a sign in the sky
And we're hitching a ride
'Cause you know in his words we're believing
Now we've all cut our hair
So we can follow him there
'Cause you know it's the earth that we're leaving
It makes me wonder
As I'm going under
There's a feeling I get
As the poision sets in
And my body is shaking and heaving
My last sight that I'll see
Is my cult around me
I hear their voices chant words that I've spoken
It makes me wonder
As I'm going under
And it's clear to me now
As I finally pass out
That the prophet will lead us to Hale-Bopp
When again I awake
A new world will wait
And the planets will come to a full stop
If there's a buzzing on your viewscreen
Don't be alarmed now
It's just our subliminal message
There's only one path you can go by
And that's suicide
There's still time to take you own life
It makes me wonder
As I'm going under
You're head is humming and it won't go
In case you don't know
A new Millinieum's approaching
Dear Brother did you see the comet?
And did you know
That heaven waits on the other end
And as we line up in a row
To give our live's to this John Doe
There walks a prophet we all know
Who tells us stars they all have souls
And they'll receive us if we go
And if we believe in every word
That we will find a ship of god
To take our spirits very far
A ship of rock and ice and snow
And he's sailing a comet to heaven...

 

[georgiaboy]

During these debates, it's great to weigh the candidates on things like what they say and how they present themselves, how they act on stage, the 'nonverbals', blah,blah,blah, but in the end, who can you trust to really reduce the size of gov't, save the dollar, and get us on a path to real prosperity? Who will back up what they're saying with doing so, and whose record reflects that?

Ron Paul is the only answer when it comes to "Yeah, those guys are ok, but who can you really trust?"

 

[hmochel1992]

I'm dealing with the same thing, both with my mother and father. Now, it's currently just with my father.

Grab a copy of For Liberty ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR4WYqabTxU ), and pick a "Family Night" to watch it. I watched it with my mom and now she really likes RP; I got a friend to watch it, and he likes the man now as well. I'm going to try to sit my father down this weekend to see it.

To paraphrase from another member, the video not only does an excellent job at explaining who Ron Paul is, but it also usually turns the viewer into a supporter.

Agreed. I'm currently a freshman in college, and I sat down with my Dad and Stepmom recently to show them For Liberty. They knew I was a diehard libertarian/RP supporter, but it was only after watching the movie that they really understood why we're so passionate as a movement. They now have a much more favorable view of Dr. Paul, although they're still both registered democrats.

 

[refuge]

Agreed. I'm currently a freshman in college, and I sat down with my Dad and Stepmom recently to show them For Liberty. They knew I was a diehard libertarian/RP supporter, but it was only after watching the movie that they really understood why we're so passionate as a movement. They now have a much more favorable view of Dr. Paul, although they're still both registered democrats.

Glad to hear your reply on this; my friend who is now a huge Ron Paul fan was democrat until Obama never gave the "change" we were looking forward to.

My situation is similar to the OP's, my dad is a hard core for-the-war republican, my mother is also a republican, though my mom likes Ron Paul a lot more now.

I just got done watching For Liberty with my dad. During the documentary, he was making some jokes/being goofy, but that's just his general personality. He really seemed to show some positive responses, especially at the end, especially when he saw about The Judge, he's a fan of Napolitano. Afterwards, I breezed through the "What If" video with him as well.

He said that he agrees with what most of Dr. Paul was saying, though he still for the wars and noted that the 5000 is a fair tradeoff since we killed so many terrorists. At least he has some things to think about though.

 

[Wesley123]

Wow, all these responses. It's good to know there are other people that have been in a similar position I'm in and can help me.

I showed my mom For Liberty and she seemed to like it. When she was watching it she said, "I don't remember who I voted for in the primaries." in 2008. My dad watched part of it, but I couldn't get him to watch it all. He needed to do some things, and I think he wanted to watch the news Maybe I'll show him a shorter video.

I think my dad's the one I need to work on most. As long as Paul stays on his course and Bachmann stays in decline my mom will be a Ron Paul voter. My dad, I don't know. Dad is more of a neo-con in a lot of ways, although I think I've influenced his foreign policy views. In the Iowa debate, my dad was watching and everybody was talking about foreign policy, when dad said "I don't know if I don't agree with Ron Paul." or something like that. Also, like the poster above, my dad likes Judge Nap. But, even though it seems like a contradiction to me, he also likes Dick Cheney.

There is hope though. After all, my parents both supported Rand Paul all through his campaign in our state.