AgentSmith
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Cool! About time you guys woke up. We have been trying for decades. You are just in time for the camps. Thanks! 
Hello from a former neo-con
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JaylieWoW
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Glad to have you here!!
One thing I never understood about the "war" claims was that on the one hand we were told they hate us for our freedom and on the other hand we were told they were starving for freedom and democracy. A bit of double speak if you ask me. This was one of the main reasons I was against the war but I FIRMLY supported going after bin Laden directly. But, as they say, hindsight is 20/20. I also remember having to fight the bloodthirsty, bomb them all urge myself.
Very, very glad to have you here!
One thing I never understood about the "war" claims was that on the one hand we were told they hate us for our freedom and on the other hand we were told they were starving for freedom and democracy. A bit of double speak if you ask me. This was one of the main reasons I was against the war but I FIRMLY supported going after bin Laden directly. But, as they say, hindsight is 20/20. I also remember having to fight the bloodthirsty, bomb them all urge myself.
Very, very glad to have you here!
cujothekitten
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This thread made me tear up a little bit.
I remember my first anti-war protest. It was in late October of 2002 (yes that is about 4 months before shock and awe), there were about 20 people there. At that time people didn't understand why we were protesting, they either thought we weren't going to invade or they thought it was a splendid idea. We were immediately seen as nuts and loons.
My anti-war stance came during the summer when my debate class decided to do our final, public, debate about the war. I already had my doubts but I wanted to look at all the evidence so I chouse to debate on the side for invasion. I was in charge of research and what I found was terrifying.
What the news was putting out was in direct conflict to the actual facts about Iraq.
We lost the debate (not due to the other side bringing any substantial facts or anything, our side was just lazy and were poor debaters) and I lost any support I had for invasion.
The years following have been a series of ad-hominem attacks and constant bombardment from neocons (I'm looking at you Protest Warriors
. Aside from my views on the war I was constantly put down for my defense of personal liberty, free trade (imagine that), and limited government. You have no idea how refreshing it is to see the tide turning.
Not only does this give me a renewed sense of hope but it also makes me feel more united as a country. I really feel we're dusting off the bad policy of this administration and reaching out for change and that is a very good thing.
Sorry for the thread hijack, I just wanted to say thank you
I remember my first anti-war protest. It was in late October of 2002 (yes that is about 4 months before shock and awe), there were about 20 people there. At that time people didn't understand why we were protesting, they either thought we weren't going to invade or they thought it was a splendid idea. We were immediately seen as nuts and loons.
My anti-war stance came during the summer when my debate class decided to do our final, public, debate about the war. I already had my doubts but I wanted to look at all the evidence so I chouse to debate on the side for invasion. I was in charge of research and what I found was terrifying.
What the news was putting out was in direct conflict to the actual facts about Iraq.
We lost the debate (not due to the other side bringing any substantial facts or anything, our side was just lazy and were poor debaters) and I lost any support I had for invasion.
The years following have been a series of ad-hominem attacks and constant bombardment from neocons (I'm looking at you Protest Warriors
. Aside from my views on the war I was constantly put down for my defense of personal liberty, free trade (imagine that), and limited government. You have no idea how refreshing it is to see the tide turning. Not only does this give me a renewed sense of hope but it also makes me feel more united as a country. I really feel we're dusting off the bad policy of this administration and reaching out for change and that is a very good thing.
Sorry for the thread hijack, I just wanted to say thank you
qednick
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War on Terror? No, you're all correct - it's a war on us and our freedoms.
Look at this check list:
http://prorev.com/fascisthints.htm
I used to support the "war on terror". I vividly recall sitting there watching 9/11 unfold live on TV news. Then everyone gets that hurd mentality of patriotism and there's flags flying everywhere. People like Cindy Sheehan, Charlie Sheen, etc. are demonized on the news as being "un-Amercian". It's so easy to get carried along with it all. Everyone to a neo-con is a filthy "liberal".
Then you begin to realize that this whole "war on terror" thing means we have to give up certain rights and liberties that we've enjoyed for centuries. So is it really a war on terror or an assult on our freedoms. By giving up those freedoms, does it mean the terrorists have won?
My answer to neo-cons now, I say, if they really do hate us for our freedoms, then let's have more freedoms and really piss them off.
Look at this check list:
http://prorev.com/fascisthints.htm
I used to support the "war on terror". I vividly recall sitting there watching 9/11 unfold live on TV news. Then everyone gets that hurd mentality of patriotism and there's flags flying everywhere. People like Cindy Sheehan, Charlie Sheen, etc. are demonized on the news as being "un-Amercian". It's so easy to get carried along with it all. Everyone to a neo-con is a filthy "liberal".
Then you begin to realize that this whole "war on terror" thing means we have to give up certain rights and liberties that we've enjoyed for centuries. So is it really a war on terror or an assult on our freedoms. By giving up those freedoms, does it mean the terrorists have won?
My answer to neo-cons now, I say, if they really do hate us for our freedoms, then let's have more freedoms and really piss them off.
Scribbler de Stebbing
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Heck, let's start a Montana cave settlement. It can be the next Free State Project. (Though I figured NH would secede along with Vermont, and we'd then kick the liberals out of Massachussetts and eventually colonize all of New England.)
Although I never considered myself a neocon, have always been a Goldwater fan, and have had one foot in the libertarian party most of my life, I fell for the war. I knew Bush was conning us with "compassionate conservatism" before he was elected, but let him sucker me into thinking we were going after Iraq in retaliation for 9/11.
That all of us were able to wake up and slap our faces means that others who have been neoconned can do the same. I have several friends who consider themselves conservatives, used to be paleocons like me, who don't support RP simply because of the war. I try to be gentle with them, forwarding articles around the edges, such as the story about Bush's detention camps and his support of rampant illegal immigration. I figure if they wake up to Bush, they'll wake up to the whole neocon scam.
Bradley in DC
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Oh, slam! Great observation. Sounds like great fodder for a video on YouTube (for someone with some such talent--that would not be yours truly). Ideally, it would have videos of Giulliani making both arguments!
Dr. Paul supported the Constitutional approach of using letters of Marque and Reprisal to target bin Laden and friends without bombing civilian populations.
Original_Intent
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I, like many of you have been very skeptical of the GOP for a long time. I have voted third party in the majority of the elections in the past 25 years. I did register GOP to vote for Alan Keyes in the primary in 2000(?).
But even so I fell for the war rhetoric and have been very pro-war until about 6 months ago. It's very tough to be wrong on something like this and I am ashamed of how I despised the peace-nik, hippy, liberals who protested the war. I thought Cindy Sheehan was a shame on her son's memory and a disgrace on our country.
As I have done more research on our history in the middle east and learned what has gone on over there over the last 40 years, I am appalled to find that I understand why they suicide bomb us. I don't think we deserve it, and it is an abominable act, but I do understand that they don't hate us because we are wealthy or free. They hate us because we have been supporting dictator regimes in exchange for OPEC nations only selling oil for US dollars. We claim that we are friends with Saudi Arabia, the truth is we are friends with the Saud government, the Saudi people by and large hate us. 15 of the 19 Sept 11 terrorists were Saudi nationals, no one examines why it is that over 75% of the attackers were from a country that is our supposed friend.
We have all been fed a load of BS and I am appalled at myself. I am not an America hater, I love our country and what it was envisioned to be by our founding fathers. The sad truth is though that we owe the world in general an apology at the very least for our behavior for most of the last century.
But even so I fell for the war rhetoric and have been very pro-war until about 6 months ago. It's very tough to be wrong on something like this and I am ashamed of how I despised the peace-nik, hippy, liberals who protested the war. I thought Cindy Sheehan was a shame on her son's memory and a disgrace on our country.
As I have done more research on our history in the middle east and learned what has gone on over there over the last 40 years, I am appalled to find that I understand why they suicide bomb us. I don't think we deserve it, and it is an abominable act, but I do understand that they don't hate us because we are wealthy or free. They hate us because we have been supporting dictator regimes in exchange for OPEC nations only selling oil for US dollars. We claim that we are friends with Saudi Arabia, the truth is we are friends with the Saud government, the Saudi people by and large hate us. 15 of the 19 Sept 11 terrorists were Saudi nationals, no one examines why it is that over 75% of the attackers were from a country that is our supposed friend.
We have all been fed a load of BS and I am appalled at myself. I am not an America hater, I love our country and what it was envisioned to be by our founding fathers. The sad truth is though that we owe the world in general an apology at the very least for our behavior for most of the last century.
beermotor
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Hello, and welcome aboard! I never thought we should go into Iraq, but when we did I thought we should stay until we won. I believed that violent Islam was to blame for all the dissent. I believed that the 9-11 terrorists attacked us for no reason except a hatred of us being non-muslims.
I proudly spewed the party line in various forums around the internet, and my hackles rose when I heard people mentin that we should cut and run.
When Ron Paul uttered his infamous debate statements, I realized there was a significant chance I did not have a clue about the truth so I started reading.
Thank heavens I had already found these forums or I would have been homeless on the internet.
Man, this is great stuff. You need to preach that conversion everywhere you can. It's very heartening to see people coming around to the MESSAGE, the Truth.
Original_Intent
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8 days before Iraq invaded Kuwait the US ambassador to Iraq told Saddam that the US was not concerned with Arab-Arab conflicts and essentially green-lighted the invasion.
Then when Saddam invades we attack him (up to that point we had been supplying arms to him and supporting him in the war with Iran)
Then after the first Iraq war, we impose sanctions and a no-fly zone killing 500,000 Iraqi children (but they hate us for our freedom)
Then Iraq decides to sell oil for euros instead of US dollars (I am amazed that they continued to sell for US dollars only even while we were at war with them)
When Iraq decided to take euros instead of dollars for oil, at that point the US began looking for a reason to go back to Iraq and remove Saddam from power. We all know that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Iraq had no WMD it was all smoke and mirrors.
Ultimately, the war is not even about oil, it is about keeping the dollar in place as the world reserve currency (since everyone needs US dollars to buy oil). If OPEC nations begin to trade oil for currency other than US dollars, all of the inflation that has been hidden for the last 20 years by "exporting dollars" is going to come home to roost and we will find that we have not been having 3% annual inflation as has been reported, we have been having double digit inflation every year.
Then when Saddam invades we attack him (up to that point we had been supplying arms to him and supporting him in the war with Iran)
Then after the first Iraq war, we impose sanctions and a no-fly zone killing 500,000 Iraqi children (but they hate us for our freedom)
Then Iraq decides to sell oil for euros instead of US dollars (I am amazed that they continued to sell for US dollars only even while we were at war with them)
When Iraq decided to take euros instead of dollars for oil, at that point the US began looking for a reason to go back to Iraq and remove Saddam from power. We all know that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, Iraq had no WMD it was all smoke and mirrors.
Ultimately, the war is not even about oil, it is about keeping the dollar in place as the world reserve currency (since everyone needs US dollars to buy oil). If OPEC nations begin to trade oil for currency other than US dollars, all of the inflation that has been hidden for the last 20 years by "exporting dollars" is going to come home to roost and we will find that we have not been having 3% annual inflation as has been reported, we have been having double digit inflation every year.
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aravoth
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Wow. You guys are weak.just kiddin'
I Was a militant neo-con, on steroids. I was into Hannity, Rush, John Gibson, Called into conservative talk radio and bitched about "all these damn protesting liberal hippies". I did alot of other things. Lets just say I wasn't freindly, at all, to people who "didn't support the troops". ...]
Dude, you should write a digg article with such content, this post is very nice. Do you mind if I quote it on another forum?
Of course, feel free.
When I lived in Canada, I idolized the US. I read your constitution, I read your federalist papers - I even read some of Lincoln's letters. Amazing stuff, and it was like manna from heaven to a boy who grew up under democratic socialism.
When I came to America, it took all of a year to shatter my dreams of America. That was the year we went to war in Iraq. I watched the "patriot" act, the warrantless wiretaps, the establishment of HomeSec, the voting machine fraud, and the massive coverup around 911, and I was disgusted. I am also a history buff, and I kept thinking about the Jews who left Germany before it was too late. I worried about that - when do you lose hope enough that you up and leave the country?
Over the last three years especially, I've been increasingly frightened by what I see in government here. No government in the world has ever voted to reduce their own power, without the help of a revolution. One hopes for a "quiet" revolution, like England's... but one never knows. I lost even that hope when the 2004 elections showed me that a revolutionary candidate would never be offered to the people.
And then there was Ron Paul. He is the only candidate in many years to offer a truly revolutionary platform for America. He seems to be the only one who has read the constitution, and who understands the philosophical underpinnings of America, and who has a large enough following to stand a chance. I truly believe that he is the last hope for this country. Another 8 years of big government under either party, would finish the job.
The way I see it, we have a choice:
- communism (Hillary: "we'll take your money for the public good")
- fascism ("corporateism", as Mussolini liked to call it)
- Ron Paul
Fight in this primary like it's your last chance for the America you believe in. It may well be.
When I came to America, it took all of a year to shatter my dreams of America. That was the year we went to war in Iraq. I watched the "patriot" act, the warrantless wiretaps, the establishment of HomeSec, the voting machine fraud, and the massive coverup around 911, and I was disgusted. I am also a history buff, and I kept thinking about the Jews who left Germany before it was too late. I worried about that - when do you lose hope enough that you up and leave the country?
Over the last three years especially, I've been increasingly frightened by what I see in government here. No government in the world has ever voted to reduce their own power, without the help of a revolution. One hopes for a "quiet" revolution, like England's... but one never knows. I lost even that hope when the 2004 elections showed me that a revolutionary candidate would never be offered to the people.
And then there was Ron Paul. He is the only candidate in many years to offer a truly revolutionary platform for America. He seems to be the only one who has read the constitution, and who understands the philosophical underpinnings of America, and who has a large enough following to stand a chance. I truly believe that he is the last hope for this country. Another 8 years of big government under either party, would finish the job.
The way I see it, we have a choice:
- communism (Hillary: "we'll take your money for the public good")
- fascism ("corporateism", as Mussolini liked to call it)
- Ron Paul
Fight in this primary like it's your last chance for the America you believe in. It may well be.
winston_blade
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I was NEO-Conned myself, granted I have never been able to vote for Bush because I wasn't old enough. It feels great that my first presidential vote is going to go to Ron Paul.
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drinkbleach
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I was suckered into believing that Iraq had wmd's
God I was so naive.
God I was so naive.
qednick
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Montana sounds great!!
I was a neo-con...
Seeing as how this seems to be the "Neo-con Anonymous" thread I figured I'd add my story...
Hello, my name is Dave, and I'm a former Neo-Con. I fully supported President Bush in 2000, the Iraq War, and his reelection in 2004. I couldn't find any faults with the guy and he was the only person who could protect us from Osama and his gang. Looking back, I guess I'll blame youth and inexperience with politics for my misjudgement.
Unlike most former neo-cons, I'm not that upset we went into Iraq. I consider the fact that Saddam (and his sons, which few people mention) is gone is a good thing. The problem is that we have no reason to be there now. In fact, I think President Bush's ultimatum before we started bombing Iraq was that Saddam and his sons had to leave or they would face the consequences. Now that Saddam and his sons are gone, I believe we have fulfilled our mission and should leave. Will there be a bloodbath when we go? Probably, but that's going to happen no matter when we leave, the bad blood between the Sunni's and the Shiites goes back 1,000 years or more and us hanging around for another year or so isn't going to change that.
My eyes were finally opened to the neo-cons in 2005, after the reelection of Bush and the Republican congress. I thought, all right, now they are going to get something done! Ha! Boy, was I naive! As soon as Social security reform was killed, without Bush putting up much of a fight, I really started to question not only the President but all Republicans in Congress. And then the Harriet Miers fiasco really got me wondering what on earth was wrong with that man. I started reading non-neo-con writers on the web, I stumbled upon Ron Paul, changed my party affiliation to Independent (which I will change back to Republican just so I can vote for Dr. Paul in the primary) and as they say the rest is history.
Thank you for letting me share, I probably could add more (like how this new immigration bill just proves that 1) Bush is actually a liberal and 2) he cares nothing about America) but I'll stop for now.
Seeing as how this seems to be the "Neo-con Anonymous" thread I figured I'd add my story...
Hello, my name is Dave, and I'm a former Neo-Con. I fully supported President Bush in 2000, the Iraq War, and his reelection in 2004. I couldn't find any faults with the guy and he was the only person who could protect us from Osama and his gang. Looking back, I guess I'll blame youth and inexperience with politics for my misjudgement.
Unlike most former neo-cons, I'm not that upset we went into Iraq. I consider the fact that Saddam (and his sons, which few people mention) is gone is a good thing. The problem is that we have no reason to be there now. In fact, I think President Bush's ultimatum before we started bombing Iraq was that Saddam and his sons had to leave or they would face the consequences. Now that Saddam and his sons are gone, I believe we have fulfilled our mission and should leave. Will there be a bloodbath when we go? Probably, but that's going to happen no matter when we leave, the bad blood between the Sunni's and the Shiites goes back 1,000 years or more and us hanging around for another year or so isn't going to change that.
My eyes were finally opened to the neo-cons in 2005, after the reelection of Bush and the Republican congress. I thought, all right, now they are going to get something done! Ha! Boy, was I naive! As soon as Social security reform was killed, without Bush putting up much of a fight, I really started to question not only the President but all Republicans in Congress. And then the Harriet Miers fiasco really got me wondering what on earth was wrong with that man. I started reading non-neo-con writers on the web, I stumbled upon Ron Paul, changed my party affiliation to Independent (which I will change back to Republican just so I can vote for Dr. Paul in the primary) and as they say the rest is history.
Thank you for letting me share, I probably could add more (like how this new immigration bill just proves that 1) Bush is actually a liberal and 2) he cares nothing about America) but I'll stop for now.
Brandybuck
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Absolutely! The only reason I spent a bit of time on the neo-libertarian side of things, was as a reaction to seeing the lefto-fascist antiwar rallies. They were protesting everything in the world BUT war. Most the organizers were confirmed communists. They were more concerned with spending defense dollars on "social justice" than about the war itself.
