Hawaii Caucus Results, Could Ron Paul Get First Victory?

[sailingaway]

On the other hand, I do like your GOTV ideas.

 

[CHOCOLATEsteven]

How about a Mormon vs Christian ad?

They worship Christ. They are christians.
And apparently, you want to trash my whole family?

These are millions of people around the world you are talking about. They don't consider themselves a cult even if you do. I may not agree with institutionalized religion anymore, but most Mormons I know are humble, kindhearted, respectful people. Granted, there are always a few bad apples in every barrel. However, generalizations like that hurt RP just as much as it would hurt Mitt.

 

[dancjm]

Tolerance? That sounds like thought crimes and speech codes. It's usually imposed by Fed Gov and it takes away your freedom.

Liberty? The Liberty to make a TV ad?

Politics is brutal. Or you lose. Hardball. Romney was the one who screwed us over in Maine.

I'm not suggesting anything like this go out with "I'm Ron Paul and I approved this message". Ron Paul should stay away from those things.

These nasty ads (and I'm not suggesting that we focus on Mormonism, but leave anything on the table) should be done by a random new organization that is not specifically related to Ron Paul.

And also, I don't think this stuff actually win happen. I'm just pointing out (like I've been pointing out how extra GOTV was necessary) that someone is going to have to do serious damage to Romney to keep him from 1144.

What did he just say? Only an "act of God" could keep him from 1144?

You sound like a neocon.

We don't like how we are treated at times. Lets not sink to the level of those who wrong us.

Golden Rule.

 

[Peace&Freedom]

They worship Christ. They are christians.
And apparently, you want to trash my whole family?

These are millions of people around the world you are talking about. They don't consider themselves a cult even if you do. I may not agree with institutionalized religion anymore, but most Mormons I know are humble, kindhearted, respectful people. Granted, there are always a few bad apples in every barrel. However, generalizations like that hurt RP just as much as it would hurt Mitt.

Mormonism is distinct from Chistian belief because of many serious deviations from historic faith its religion involves. This is not an attack on Mormons, or necessarily calling it a cult, just an honest statement that the two are different. Just as if somebody said Muslims are Christians, the honest response (by anybody informed as to the doctrinal stances of both) would be to object to conflating the two.

From a prior post of mine: More completely described, Mormonism uses semi-orthodox terminology that rhetorically disguises substantive departures from historic Christian faith and doctrine, including the above. Instead of faith in Christ alone, it teaches Christ did not die for all, and that one must perform good works, obey the Book of Mormon, specifically undergo baptism by immersion, etc in order to be saved. The details of their doctrine of God is more polytheistic than monotheistic, and does not involve a belief in the Trinity as historically understood. People should read Martin's classic "The Kingdom of the Cults" for a complete breakdown.

 

[idiom]

Mormonism is distinct from Chistian belief because of many serious deviations from historic faith its religion involves. This is not an attack on Mormons, or necessarily calling it a cult, just an honest statement that the two are different. Just as if somebody said Muslims are Christians, the honest response (by anybody informed as to the doctrinal stances of both) would be to object to conflating the two.

I know plenty of people who think Catholics are not Christians, and, for a very long time, if you were protestant, you were definitely not a Christian.

 

[alucard13mmfmj]

Why single out Mormons?

Every religion, ethnic groups, nationality, skin color groups, and etc etc do it. People tend to vote for someone that is similar. I will admit that if there was no Ron Paul in the race and I did not wake up to the Ron Paul movement... I'd probably vote for an asian or buddhist... mainly because the fact that people tend to stick together with their own "kind". USA is getting a little better and mixing more and more, but there are still elements of sticking together with your own "kind".

The collective mentality is strong. There are some innate racism or favortism in all people. It just depends on how much.

BTW... 85% of Japanese oppose foreigners immigrating into Japan.

 

[Peace&Freedom]

I know plenty of people who think Catholics are not Christians, and, for a very long time, if you were protestant, you were definitely not a Christian.

The subjective biases of "plenty of people," or what people felt "for a very long time" is irrelevant. HISTORIC Christian faith objectively involves very specific doctrines or principles that have been held by believers over the past 2000 years. If you hold them, you are Christian, if you don't, you are not. Mormons do not hold to most of the key doctrines of the historic Christian faith, so their belief system is distinct from Christianity.


P.S.: My point is not to turn this into a religious discussion, but to respond to others saying "the two are the same" as if it were undisputed, when that is clearly not the case. Why can one side make a blatantly religious claim that 'the faiths are the same' and there are no concerns, but as soon as a reasonable objection is raised, a mod ponders "oops, might have to move this to the religion forum"?

 

[mickey mouse joy division]

Now that I know it's full of Mormons, betting on another Idaho-sized disaster. Fuck... fuck... fuck this country.

 

[PolicyReader]

Since the Mormon question was raised

0.1-10% by population density. However expect higher concentrations among GOP voters. Could easily be more than counter acted by the involvement of voters outside of the 'GOP mainstream' but I don't know what kind of odds to give on those voters showing up in those numbers (they're there in spades, but will they vote)


As you can see by the map there is a far lower concentration of Mormons than in Idaho, or even Nevada.
For that matter Washington and Colorado have higher concentrations. By density we're talking something more like Missouri or MI just for comparisons sake.

 

[sailingaway]

The subjective biases of "plenty of people," or what people felt "for a very long time" is irrelevant. HISTORIC Christian faith objectively involves very specific doctrines or principles that have been held by believers over the past 2000 years. If you hold them, you are Christian, if you don't, you are not. Mormons do not hold to most of the key doctrines of the historic Christian faith, so their belief system is distinct from Christianity.

I guess I'm theologically naive, but when I read the Bible I remember something about 'all you need is to love eachother as yourself (golden rule) and believe in me'. That seems to allow a lot of leeway.

However, I don't want to force myself to move this post to the religion subforum, so.....

I sure hope we win Hawaii!!

Santorum is sending his daughter, and there are a lot of Catholics there too.... It will be a caucus of self organized factions and it will be interesting to see how that splits up. Ron appeals to these voters as well, I hope.

 

[parocks]

They worship Christ. They are christians.
And apparently, you want to trash my whole family?

These are millions of people around the world you are talking about. They don't consider themselves a cult even if you do. I may not agree with institutionalized religion anymore, but most Mormons I know are humble, kindhearted, respectful people. Granted, there are always a few bad apples in every barrel. However, generalizations like that hurt RP just as much as it would hurt Mitt.

No, I'm just trying to figure out what we can do to win. If there's anything there that can be mined to hurt Romney, there you go. The goal is keep Romney from 1144. Can the Mormon thing do it? Maybe. I personally don't have any special anti Mormon animosity, but I'm also not PC, and I'll try to find lines of attack.

You might not have noticed this, but we aren't doing all that well.

 

[PolicyReader]

Re: Romney and the LDS factor.

If you're LDS and your voting for Romney newsflash you are making a mistake. Now I'm not practicing myself but I've lived in ID and UT (my family settled large parts of both and some sections are even named after people in my family line). Romney is LDS in name only and frankly anyone who believes in the doctrine as written should never even consider voting for Willard Romney. Sadly in my experience there are two type of folks when it comes to religion, be it among the LDS or some other faith. Those who try to follow the precepts even if/when it makes them unpopular. And those who (like Romney) use it as a social club to gain personal benefit. Most people I've spoken with who worship Christ feel it is wrong to take the name of the lord in vain, and what could possibly be more in vein that to use it for ones own personal vanity and ambition?

If you want to defend your faith, good, defend it against defamation by Willard Romney. If you're looking for lines of attack, fine point out the simple fact that Romney is no more a good Mormon than he is a good Conservative.

Regardless of how you come to it, don't we all want liberty here? Isn't that the basic point? (as opposed to quibbling about what "Christian" is, when the term as it is couched in present context wasn't in use until repetitively recently and even then wasn't codified as such for reasons of faith)

So, let's take a step back, take a breath, and make this about what we can do to improve liberty for all of us.

 

[devil21]

You better believe that Obama and/or his surrogates WILL be bringing up Romney's Mormonism if he wins the nomination.

 

[kathy88]

You better believe that Obama and/or his surrogates WILL be bringing up Romney's Mormonism if he wins the nomination.

Jeremiah Wright didn't hurt his chances, and that dude is flat out nuts. People really don't care about this as much as they claim. If they did, as Policy Reader pointed out, LDS who are politically aware know Romney's a MINO and a RINO and are Paul supporters. You can't make the others (blind) see.

 

[Sullivan*]

Or, knowing that most Mormons will be supporting Romney, and knowing that Romney is in first place in delegates, and knowing that Romney is a Mormon, it might just be better to go scorched earth and trash Mormons.

You know, learn up on the Mormonism cult. We must have a brokered / open convention to win. That means we have to knock Romney down significantly.

How about a Mormon vs Christian ad?

This is a terrible idea. Just sayin'

 

[Jeremy]

Parcocks, I locked your other thread where you said we should insult mormons. It's a very bad idea and it's offensive. So please stop.

 

[RonPaulFanInGA]

It would have helped if Paul had went there a few days ago and stayed there through the caucus.

 

[unknown]

Hawaii will NOT let us down.

One just has to know their history to realize that Ron Paul HAS to be their choice!!!

 

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Hawaii will NOT let us down.

One just has to know their history to realize that Ron Paul HAS to be their choice!!!

John "make it 100!" McCain was Hawaii's choice in 2008.

 

[opinionatedfool]

Ahem... I thought this thread was about HAWAII!