Have you ever studied, "The Allegory of the Cave?"

[Philosophy_of_Politics]

It's not disinterest, you may be surprised to learn that Plato's Allegory of the Cave has been referenced here several times. Ron Paul tends to attract people of a much higher intellect than your 'normal' Presidential contender. Aratus sorta hinted at that LOL. Sometimes his word-pictures tend towards the abstract.

Your first post wasn't arrogant, it's just I'm pretty sure that most of us have already chewed that meat. Probably got a lot of quick glances, a silent "Yup, uh huh" and move on. Not derogating the work, just letting you know that philosophy around these parts is several orders of magnitude more complex than you would find around Romney/Perry/Bachmann et al.

Indeed, it may be a struggle to find a novel application.

I appreciate the clarification, and I do agree that Ron Paul attracts a lot of people with such "intellect (not meant to be demeaning to non-paul supporters)." Yes, Aratus is very well aware. Haha. People may have chewed the philosophical lecture "meat" previously, but as new people join the movement, I think it's important to keep such a topic refreshed.

 

[Philosophy_of_Politics]

BTW, great post Philosophy_of_Politics

Thank you! Thank you for some specific information for people to review as well!



By the way. This . . .

"For if you [the rulers] suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that you first make thieves [and outlaws] and then punish them.
-Sir Thomas More (1478-1535), Utopia, Book 1"

Is signature worthy.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Focus less on whether or not the people were hoodwinked, and analyze whether or not that interpretation seems to be possible, and happening in our modern day society. Focus more on the mental image, that's trying to be displayed through the Allegory of the Cave.

Of course, including the struggle and the fear of the escapee moving towards the bright and painful sunlight. It is so easy to prefer the chains and slavery where it is dark and comfortable, and you are cared for and fed. The sun hurts the eyes, you have to come up with your own food. Most who broke free of their chains might never venture outside of the cave.

The Allegory of the Cave is general enough that any aspect can be carried into today with almost precise application. Puppetmasters. People seing shadows of reality only, and not even the real puppets. Shadows of shadows conveying only the dimmest glimmer of information. Bondage, slavery, welfare, freedom and struggle. The Cave fits the narrative of pretty much any unenlightened person/group and the US is no different.

 

[Liberty4life]

Sounds like something Stefan Molyneux would say..

 

[Philosophy_of_Politics]

Of course, including the struggle and the fear of the escapee moving towards the bright and painful sunlight. It is so easy to prefer the chains and slavery where it is dark and comfortable, and you are cared for and fed. The sun hurts the eyes, you have to come up with your own food. Most who broke free of their chains might never venture outside of the cave.

The Allegory of the Cave is general enough that any aspect can be carried into today with almost precise application. Puppetmasters. People seing shadows of reality only, and not even the real puppets. Shadows of shadows conveying only the dimmest glimmer of information. Bondage, slavery, welfare, freedom and struggle. The Cave fits the narrative of pretty much any unenlightened person/group and the US is no different.

I cannot disagree. However, does my interpretation fit in a way, relative to our recent political events, and societal suffering? I feel my interpretation, is rather applicable.

PS: I see a sharp jab at the welfare state in your first few sentences in that post.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I appreciate the clarification, and I do agree that Ron Paul attracts a lot of people with such "intellect (not meant to be demeaning to non-paul supporters)." Yes, Aratus is very well aware. Haha. People may have chewed the philosophical lecture "meat" previously, but as new people join the movement, I think it's important to keep such a topic refreshed.

Not demeaning as much as they tend to be unenlightened. Paul supporters tend to be enlightened. It's such common knowledge that we use another, more modern allegory to describe it: "The Red Pill" a Matrix reference.

Most of the folks around here have left the cave, and suffered the painful sunlight and the fear of finding food, and chosen not to stay in the cave other than to try and help free the other prisoners. Others around here have said to hell with the other prisoners and stayed out of the cave altogether. Those who have yet to escape the cave either tend not to last very long on the forums, or end up becoming enlightened themselves.

 

[sailingaway]

Yes, in order for humanity to exist as a society, it does need guardians. Consider guardians to be the parallel term for "Authority." Imagine a society without boundaries, rules, or authority?

Having authority and boundaries isn't a bad thing for humanity (necessary for society, in my opinion). The issue is -- humanity naturally tries to break boundaries. We push ourselves everyday, to get a deeper understanding of EVERYTHING. Technology and Anatomy being 2 clear examples. However, what is the intention of the authority? Is it meant to "RULE?" Or is that authority meant to "PRESERVE?"

Our current Government, is there for intention to "Rule."
When the strongest this country ever was, was when authority existed to "PRESERVE" this country.

We've strayed.

It needs administrators, but query 'authority' except as administrators of the principles of the republic. Authority seems to imply a higher status, not just a specialized function, at the properly expressed will of the people.

 

[Philosophy_of_Politics]

It needs administrators, but query 'authority' except as administrators of the principles of the republic. Authority seems to imply a higher status, not just a specialized function.

Yes, social status. Authority can even fall victim to abuse of social power.

You ever read Howard Brody's article? "The Social Power of Expert Healers."

 

[Birdlady]

To be honest, I had a tl;dr moment... :o But I went back and read it. I agree with you.

 

[Philosophy_of_Politics]

Not demeaning as much as they tend to be unenlightened. Paul supporters tend to be enlightened. It's such common knowledge that we use another, more modern allegory to describe it: "The Red Pill" a Matrix reference.

Most of the folks around here have left the cave, and suffered the painful sunlight and the fear of finding food, and chosen not to stay in the cave other than to try and help free the other prisoners. Others around here have said to hell with the other prisoners and stayed out of the cave altogether. Those who have yet to escape the cave either tend not to last very long on the forums, or end up becoming enlightened themselves.

The good ole' matrix, very fun for modern philosophers. Haha.

 

[sailingaway]

No I have not. And not intending to pigeonhole a new poster, but did you realize we have a philosophy subforum? You might want to check it out at some point: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?288-Political-Philosophy

However, I warn you it is not for the faint of heart. We tend to think good ideas will rise and bad ideas fall on the strength of logic, and likely some of just about everything is represented in there.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I cannot disagree. However, does my interpretation fit in a way, relative to our recent political events, and societal suffering? I feel my interpretation, is rather applicable.

PS: I see a sharp jab at the welfare state in your first few sentences in that post.

Most people tend to suffer, while the suffering is tolerable, than to cast off the bonds of the governments that they have grown accustomed to.

Sure, the interpretation fits. I think the point I was making was that it's kind of an obvious fit, and most here already take it as given. The above sentence is a paraphrase of the Declaration of Independence, meant to demonstrate that our current quandary is nothing new, and indeed it would seem to go back all the way to Socrates.

 

[Philosophy_of_Politics]

No I have not. And not intending to pigeonhole a new poster, but did you realize we have a philosophy subforum? You might want to check it out at some point: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?288-Political-Philosophy

However, I warn you it is not for the faint of heart. We tend to think good ideas will rise and bad ideas fall on the strength of logic, and likely some of just about everything is represented in there.

Thanks for pointing that out! I got so excited to present my interpretation, that I didn't even read much else except the common "GENERAL DISCUSSION" button. Haha.

Think I just found a new community to embrace.

 

[Philosophy_of_Politics]

Maybe an obvious fit, for already enlightened individuals!

Thank you, once again! I appreciate the articulate responses!

 

[sailingaway]

Welcome!

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

I will say this.

While there are parts of the Republic that I don't agree with (mainly Plato/Socrates' ideas on how to shape the perfect society...), or perhaps don't understand fully (it may be a question of philosophical interpretation or something similar), the Allegory of the Cave definitely resonated with me, because I think it perfectly describes the situation the masses find themselves in today. While this statement makes me sound incredibly elitist, I still find it unbelievable that more people don't understand Ron Paul's positions. I think Ron Paul is really the only candidate who can base his positions on established philosophy, and I think it's awesome that he uses historical greats like the Founding Fathers and Aquinas to support his views, as much as that flies over the head of the average American.

It also amuses me that the Republic is cited as one of the quintessential examples of Western thought, when so many people apparently ignore some of the basic tenets behind it, such as the Allegory of the Cave. I mean, too many people are in fact stuck seeing "the shadows on the wall", even those with some education that would know the whole point of the allegory.

 

[RIPLEYMOM]

May I add something intended to be uplifting and in no way disrespectful to the tenure of the site? Not having studied the art of philosophy, this great movement seems to be led, aside from Ron Paul, by a largely younger crowd. I think it's awesome, but, I
think it is sometimes hard for those who are older, and still stuck in the cave, to heed advice from an age-group associated with
the buttocks they once powdered. Is that okay to say? I'm proud to have ascended into this movement, but as a former cave-
dweller, it's been a bit blinding at times.

 

[Napolitanic Wars]

Yes I first heard about this from philosophy class 5 years ago! I've been telling a lot of people about this analogy. It applies well to Ron Paul. Just like Josh Lowry said at the end of For Liberty, "I know nothing before Ron Paul."

 

[WilliamC]

If your primary point is that modern media, especially television, is almost exclusively used for 'brainwashing' the masses I wholeheartedly agree.

I purposefully gave up watching TV (at least having any cable or satellite or even an antenna) in the late 90's and it makes a huge difference in how I see the world around me and how I judge other people.

I truly think that the decline of the post-WWII America can be directly attributed to the rise of the TV culture and the American people turning inward and indoors instead of going outside and socializing.

 

[Incrimsonias]

As others have touched upon, the cave-allegory is such a striking image that many parallels can be drawn from it, connecting many universal themes.

I interpret the Cave as a representation of the higher/lower self. The Lower-self is shackled (blinded, ignorant, .. etc etc) while the higher-self frees itself, ascends and beholds the Good. Or possibly the Higher-self has always been free and simply descends to illume its lesser half. Anyways, regardless, it's then the interaction of the two that produces a full awareness of Reality.

Granted that's just a slapstick explanation that I really should reflect more on before commenting. But fundamentally it's a Gnostic theme. The Philosopher (the escaped prisoner) has to educate the prisoners. I believe Plato describes this as a "turning" towards the good. First they must turn to the flame, turn to the puppeteers, to LEARN that they are being deceived. After the long and arduous ascent up the cave, the philosopher must acclimate the prisoner to the Good, for the prisoner has only known Darkness!! The Gnostics believed that knowledge leads to salvation (the knowledge of God, Nature, Divine Reality etc etc), which the mystics would call union with Reality. So it is through knowledge that the prisoners are convinced their world is a sham. They are educated by the Philosopher that their world is mere shadows and are redeemed through knowledge.

The most ironic part of the Allegory is that it begins in the cave. Most traditions describe a descent into a cave/darkness as the way to gain "supreme" knowledge of Reality. But it's been a few years since ive read this stuff so i probably messed some things up. But definitely love learning about this stuff

*edit* and I'd like to add.. yes many are probably already familiar with the Allegory of the Cave, but many probably only received a cursory teaching that probably overlooked its finer points.

And for myself, I prefer the Phaedo. A philosopher must constantly chase death.