Have Christians ever sought to conquer the World for Christianity ?

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light200763

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The reason I want to know is because the Neocon Right Wingers always tell me that the Islamists desire to conquer the World for Islam but don't all Religions do this ? Why just pick on Islam ? When Christians started the Crusades in the name of Christianity to conquer Palestine. I think Islamist Terrorism is caused by U.S. Foreign Policy rather then their desire for Empire Christians have had Christian Empires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
 
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light200763 said:
The reason I want to know is because the Neocon Right Wingers always tell me that the Islamists desire to conquer the World for Islam but don't all Religions do this ? Why just pick on Islam ? When Christians started the Crusades in the name of Christianity to conquer Palestine. I think Islamist Terrorism is caused by U.S. Foreign Policy rather then their desire for Empire Christians have had Christian Empires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
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It wasn't Christians that started the Crusades. That was a perverted religion that called itself Christian.
 
Dr.3D said:
It wasn't Christians that started the Crusades. That was a perverted religion that called itself Christian.
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I agree. I don't align myself with anybody who calls themselves Christian, yet fight for a political kingdom on earth.

Martin Luther mocked the idea of a "Christian army", "...as though our people were an army of Christians against the [Muslims], who were enemies of Christ. This is absolutely contrary to Christ's doctrine and name".

This is sadly one of the many errors of Rome. When you deny the doctrine of justification by faith alone, the element of coercion enters into your system and it begets force and tyranny.
 
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The Crusades were used more to fight other Christians to turn them to Catholics then to fight for Jerusalem.

This is why when the Ottomans later on were so successful when they advanced into Eastern Europe.Most of the Orthodox christian noblemen became vassals to the Sultan in return for letting them keep their land/faith and give them the pleasure to sack Rome.

But the Ottomans later on betrayed them.
 
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AquaBuddha2010 said:
I agree. I don't align myself with anybody who calls themselves Christian, yet fight for a political kingdom on earth.

Martin Luther mocked the idea of a "Christian army", "...as though our people were an army of Christians against the [Muslims], who were enemies of Christ. This is absolutely contrary to Christ's doctrine and name".

This is sadly one of the many errors of Rome. When you deny the doctrine of justification by faith alone, the element of coercion enters into your system and it begets force and tyranny.
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Exactly! They call themselves Christian and then forget what is written in John 18:36.
 
light200763 said:
The reason I want to know is because the Neocon Right Wingers always tell me that the Islamists desire to conquer the World for Islam but don't all Religions do this ? Why just pick on Islam ? When Christians started the Crusades in the name of Christianity to conquer Palestine. I think Islamist Terrorism is caused by U.S. Foreign Policy rather then their desire for Empire Christians have had Christian Empires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
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One of the raisons d'etre of the Roman church was to conquer the world by spreading Christianity to one and all; even if they had to kill those refusing to accept papal force (note I do not call it "authority" because there was none, save that of the sword). So the answer is "yes". What the base motives may have been, good or bad, are perhaps impossible to know and are irrelevant. What counts is what was DONE and not the underlying intentions.

The same may be said for the Muslims. The vast and overwhelming majority appear to be peaceable people who are uninterested in the politicization of their religion in terms of participating in it. That tiny minority is the fountainhead of the trouble. Who pulls their strings? Perhaps impossible to tell, but I do not discount any plausible explanation's candidacy.

Global politics is the great Gordian Knot of truth twisted into deceit. It is an endless and hopelessly unnavigable maze of smoke and mirrors. When you have considered it as pathologically deeply as have I, you get an inkling of that which we are up against. It is not so much the material reality that cannot be defeated as it is the psychological quagmire that has us fighting against our own ignorance and the inability to perceive certain aspects of the truth. The people who have contrived this circumstance are masters of a very black art. My hat is off to them for sheer nerve and drive to achieve. One can have nothing but respect for such master craftsmanship and unmitigated avarice.

I wonder if they are hiring.
 
I posted this lecture a few days ago. It talks about the history of war in Roman Catholicism, Islam, and Judaism...and how the conservative movement in America has been taken over by the foreign policy of Rome and Judaism. I know I am stepping on a lot of people's toes and people don't like me for it, but the case he lays out is hard to refute, imo:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...ars-Of-The-21st-Century&p=3804878#post3804878
 
Maybe the religion itself didn't, but there can be no dispute certain small groups of people abused religion with ease for control of whole nations that did.

That's why I so vehemently oppose any type of religion, it's just too easy for someone to abuse it for control over the masses. When I say any type I also mean the state, rights, citizens.. anything that isn't based on facts and therefor doesn't exist.
 
hazek said:
Maybe the religion itself didn't, but there can be no dispute certain small groups of people abused religion with ease for control of whole nations that did.

That's why I so vehemently opposeV any type of religion, it's just too easy for someone to abuse it for control over the masses. When I say any type I also mean the state, rights, citizens.. anything that isn't based on facts and therefor doesn't exist.
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Respectfully Hazek, you don't oppose religion. Your religion is humanism, and it is responsible for more murder, oppression, and tyranny than all of these other religions combined.
 
AquaBuddha2010 said:
Respectfully Hazek, you don't oppose religion. Your religion is humanism, and it is responsible for more murder, oppression, and tyranny than all of these other religions combined.
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Care to back up your two allegations?
 
With regards to Christianity and Islam, there seems to be a belief that people should or need to be converted. Judaism, not so much.

Muslims are portrayed as wanting to convert by force whereas Christians tend to use missionaries, though there was a time when force seemed to be acceptable which spans from the Crusades to the "savages" on the newly discovered continents.

The Gospel of Matthew quotes Jesus as teaching, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."[5]

Christianization is the broader cultural term, and typically has involved efforts to systematically convert an entire continent or culture from existing beliefs to Christianity.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Conversion_to_Christianity
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So if people can be led to believe that Muslims will run rampant and "force" you to convert, it allows TPTB to justify waging war against an entire religion or everyone from that faith i.e. endless war until everyone is dead.

So the question is, are people being "forced" to convert? I would argue that there are examples of forced conversions but the percentages are around .01% (or less) of the total Muslim population. The examples are limited mostly to third world countries where the problem IMO has more to do with education and poverty. You dont see that behavior among the more educated and wealthy.

And how does one "forcibly convert" anyway? If someone is forced to "change their beliefs", do they? Of-course not, unless brainwashing is involved i.e. MK ULTRA.

Regardless, these types of social problems are not solved by Western powers committing mass murder and stealing natural resources. They are solved through education, understanding, outreach and a sound economy/money. Something the Western powers have no interest in.
 
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Let's not derail the thread. To answer the OP's question, Charlamane specifically sought to conquer the world for the "Holy Roman Empire". And before anyone falsely accuses this of being a "Catholic bashing" thread, remember that protestants like King James II and Oliver Cromwell literally sought to enslave Irish Catholics.

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta...the-irish-slave-trade-forgotten-white-slaves/

And yes, any religion can be mis-used because everything is subject to interpretation. It's clear to me that Christianity in its purest form is a religion that greatly empowers the individual with it's prohibition against compulsion in giving, it's prohibition against having leaders "lord" over their followers, rather insisting on leaders being humble servants, and the teaching that Christ is our high priest and that we can all come "boldly before the throne" and that a minimum for a church is "two or three people" gathered in the name of Jesus who worship God in "Spirit and in Truth".

The problem is that men can mess anything up. People naturally have a desire for something larger than themselves. So when religion is totally done away with, things like Communism or the "Venus Project" naturally rise up to fill the vacuum. It's human nature and its a pattern that has happened for thousands of years. Sometimes people leave one "dogma" and become just as dogmatic in another direction without even realizing it, all the time proclaiming themselves to be more "free" than they other guy. If you're truly free you don't have to proclaim it just like if you're truly smart you don't have to proclaim it.

As for the neocons and their irrational fearmongering over Islam, it wasn't Muslims in the senate that recently voted to give the military power to arrest and imprison Americans indefinitely without any judicial due process. If this law passes in the house there is only one Muslim there who can possibly vote for it. And if it goes to the Supreme Court and it is upheld it will be upheld by Catholics and Jews because those are the only religions currently represented on the court. If the Muslims really "hate us for our freedoms" then why do we give up our freedoms to "fight" them? The problem with the average Christian in America is that he has given into fear. Fear makes you react irrationally. The Bible declares Satan to be a "roaring lion seeking whom he may devour". It's the male lion who roars when hunting. The idea is to get the prey to run away scared into the arms and jaws of the lionesses. Many Christians are reactionary. They are running from Muslim "boogeymen" right into the arms of the New World Order. They gladly support laws giving the government powers to spy on religious groups, not realizing that they are the ones in the crosshairs of such legislation.

As Job said "That which I feared has now come upon me". Find out how to explain to the American Christian his irrational Islamophobia and you will have the key to unlocking his mind. And yes, much of the fear is irrational. Sharia coming to America? Really? Who's going to vote for it in the house and senate? What supreme court is going to uphold it? Most of the growth in the U.S. population is from immigration from south of the border. Newsflash to neocons, there aren't a lot of Muslims in Mexico. (It's an overwhelmingly Catholic country). And as for Sharia in the rest of the world, our war with Iraq brought Sharia to that country. Our war with Libya brought Sharia there. Our encouraging "democracy" throughout the region is bringing Sharia to Egypt and other "Arab spring" countries. And while dumbed down Republicans want to blame that all on Obama, this is really just more of the "democratizing of the middle east" that was started under Bush. So if your afraid of Sharia in America, don't be. That will never happen here. And if you're really afraid of it happening then you should be for open borders to bring in more Catholic voters from Mexico and other nations south of the border. If you're afraid of Sharia in other countries then quit meddling in those countries! Our meddling has only helped strengthen the hands of those who want Sharia!
 
specsaregood said:
But for the purpose of answering the OP's question....
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The answer is NO.
Those who called themselves Christians but really were not are by definition NOT Christians.

When Constantine declared that his Troops were all Christian,, it did not make them Christian.
In the same manner,, when a Khazar King declared that all Khazars were now Jews,, it did not make them Jews.

It is called "Confusion".
And the spirit of Confusion is not of God.
 
specsaregood said:
But for the purpose of answering the OP's question....
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I would say no. You just can't reconcile using earthly weapons and earthly war with what the Scripture says in many places:

Hebrews 12:14 NASB

Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
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Romans 12:18 NASB

If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
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Psalm 34:14 NASB

Depart from evil and do good;
Seek peace and pursue it.
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Psalm 120:7 NASB

I am for peace, but when I speak,
They are for war.
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Romans 14:19 NASB

So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
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Ephesians 6:12 NASB

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
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John 18:36 NASB

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
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AquaBuddha2010 said:
I would say no. You just can't reconcile using earthly weapons and earthly war with what the Scripture says in many places:
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I totally agree with your points, but from what I have learned in this semester, Roman Catholics *did* call themselves Christians, did they not? Whether they were usurping the label or not is sort of an entirely different point. For the purposes of the OP's discussion, I think it would be easier to be a little more "accommodating" with the Christian label, if that makes sense. You open up a whole other can of worms when you don't label the people undertaking the Crusades and other endeavors as true Christians, although I agree, they definitely weren't acting on anything they had read in Scripture.

Back to the topic: There are other examples of persecution by so-called "Christians" throughout history... I remember learning that in 14th and 15th-century Spain, the Spanish government forced Jews and Muslims to convert to Catholicism (the "conversos"), coming up with a new pure-blood doctrine that really was one of the first major conceptions of race as a blood identity.

And of course in England you have Oliver Cromwell, who was a Protestant but still was a horrible leader... dancing was forbidden during his rule in England. Not to mention some of the societies that came over to the US seem icky too, if The Scarlet Letter had any truth to it.

So, I would ultimately have to go with the suggestion that religion, unless carefully guarded by people well-grounded in Scripture and peaceful intentions, can become a rather powerful tool once shaped in the hands of the elite. Much like many other systems, in fact.
 
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