Hamas' Half-baked Attack On Israel Reveals Its Truer Face

[osan]

Do you perhaps hate Arab Muslims?

I don't even think about them, generally, so no.

Or is there another explanation for your support for genocide on these Palestinians that have already been locked un in the open prison Gaza strip that is bombed by the Israeli army ferquently?!?

Oh please. Go back, read what I wrote - all of it - and stop injecting your filters. I was pretty clear about my position, so far as I went. If you see things otherwise, how's about discussing it properly, rather with what seems a little like rancor? If you feel the Palestinians are the actual victims, then make your argument. This "do you hate Arabs" tack is pointless and irrelevant, not to mention a cheap way of attempting to invalidate my position by falsely attributing it to something as trivial as some petty hatred.

You are arguing that Israel has the "right" to murder and starve innocent Palestinians. Because...

...Hamas has situated themselves in such a way that uses those innocents as human shields. Once again you are attempting to couch your argument in half-truths. The Israelis hold every right to defend themselves. To do nothing is to invite more of the same. They are in an impossible situation, as are some of the Palestinians. Palestinian claims to life are no greater than those of Israelis. Rock. Hardplace. And in this case, Hamas is the bad actor.

I could use your kind of reasoning to argue that Americans have the obligation to snitch on right wing Libertarian extremists, with these horrible yellow "Don't thread on me" posters, and having guns and ammunition stashed in their house...

Oh for Pete's sake, you can't be serious.

Good night.

 

[Firestarter]

...Hamas has situated themselves in such a way that uses those innocents as human shields. Once again you are attempting to couch your argument in half-truths. The Israelis hold every right to defend themselves. To do nothing is to invite more of the same. They are in an impossible situation, as are some of the Palestinians. Palestinian claims to life are no greater than those of Israelis. Rock. Hardplace. And in this case, Hamas is the bad actor.

So your "truer face" isn't just one of hypocrisy but of dishonesty to manipulate others.

If I combine your arguments they contradict themselves.
If I follow your circular reasoning, you're arguing that because innocent Palestinians are the victims of terrorist Hamas (that use them as human shields), Israel has the right to kill them indiscriminately.

This is from your first post...

Furthermore, to label the Palestinians as in any way being mere and innocent civilians (small children excepted) carries an equally foul stench. In order to be genuinely innocent, they would have to stand in sincere and open disapproval of Hamas' existence. Tolerance of an official policy that says "death to Israel" cannot be reasonably taken as innocent, even in the face of threats to anyone daring to speak out. If a Palestinian disapproves of Hamas, then he should take whatever action he is able to thwart and erode the designs of Hamas. Granted, it may not be possible to do much that is immediately and directly effective, given that we are speaking of a terrorist organization which has shown its eager will to spill blood pursuant to their goals and objectives. But there are things that could be done, nonetheless, such as moving away from the area. How about sharing with Israeli authorities information that might help them take effective action against specific individuals who strive to precipitate blood-soaked mayhem?

 

[Snowball]

Palestinians TRIED the nice way with global - everyone except the Jewish State and the United States in the WORLD.

Everytime the UN would vote to hold the Jewish State accountable for its endless crimes - US veto.

Then the US took it on the chin with Israel attacked the USS Liberty.
Then the US worked for peace and a two-state solution for decades.

Didn't work because Israel's right-wing murdered Rabin and Arafat.

So right now, after Israel created this same militant Hamas decades ago, they lose control of it.
Meanwhile, the West Bank which is not Hamas at all is persecuted as much as Gaza.

Israel is trying to enforce the Kushner Plan - all Palestinians out of Israel. By force this time.

This is the leopard and its spots. You have to understand that the political support in Israel is 70/30 hard right vs reasonable people.
And that a large part of the right wants to create Eretz Israel and build the Third Temple where the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa stand.
And the reasonable people like ours are being manipulated to support ethnic cleansing and false narratives about Israel's bloody history and bloody future. If they get their way, the next thing to go will be the Christian churches. The Jewish State became a sore on the world because they made it so. They are the guilty and they are the problem.

 

[Cap]

Palestinians TRIED the nice way with global - everyone except the Jewish State and the United States in the WORLD.

Everytime the UN would vote to hold the Jewish State accountable for its endless crimes - US veto.

Then the US took it on the chin with Israel attacked the USS Liberty.
Then the US worked for peace and a two-state solution for decades.

Didn't work because Israel's right-wing murdered Rabin and Arafat.

So right now, after Israel created this same militant Hamas decades ago, they lose control of it.
Meanwhile, the West Bank which is not Hamas at all is persecuted as much as Gaza.

Israel is trying to enforce the Kushner Plan - all Palestinians out of Israel. By force this time.

This is the leopard and its spots. You have to understand that the political support in Israel is 70/30 hard right vs reasonable people.
And that a large part of the right wants to create Eretz Israel and build the Third Temple where the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa stand.
And the reasonable people like ours are being manipulated to support ethnic cleansing and false narratives about Israel's bloody history and bloody future. If they get their way, the next thing to go will be the Christian churches. The Jewish State became a sore on the world because they made it so. They are the guilty and they are the problem.

Just one more reason to kick Trump to the curb. Jarvanka.

 

[osan]

So your "truer face" isn't just one of hypocrisy but of dishonesty to manipulate others.

Oh for Pete's sake, cut the drama. If you have a point to make, then make it. Otherwise, please don't waste people's time.

I've been posting here for 15 years and nobody has ever accused me of dishonesty before. If you see a problem wiht my position then point it out. If I agree, I will own it. I always do and have done so here before. We're supposed to be friends here with certain commonalities. Your tone suggests otherwise. So which is it?

I'm here to learn, to teach, and have meaningful exchanges. I'm not here to trade in flame wars.

If I combine your arguments they contradict themselves.

OK, they might. Show me where and I will be happy to examine your point honestly.

If I follow your circular reasoning, you're arguing that because innocent Palestinians are the victims of terrorist Hamas (that use them as human shields), Israel has the right to kill them indiscriminately.

No. You injected "indiscriminate" to characterize my words. Now who is being manipulatively dishonest? This is a rank error and to be quite frank I am a little surprised at you for attempting it.

If the only way to defend yourself is to kill those behind whom the enemy hides, well... it comes down to you or them. It's a rock and a hard place, but please do regale us how you might bravely stand down and allow such an enemy to murder your children and friends. See how easy it is to engage in what you yourself accuse me of doing? How about we keep this real?

This is from your first post...[/QUOTE]

I do this all the time. I speak statistically as a matter of habit and have been doing it here for 15 years. I have also in years past made very clear statements explaining this. Perhaps I should have made my statement more explicit. Mea culpa.

That said, and to put it in clear terms you will have difficulty in misconstruing: some of the Palestinians are innocent, some are not. Hamas is fact and what they do is fact and not justifiable. If they have a problem with the acts of the Israeli "government" and if they are in fact at war with them, then let them confine their targeting to government installations and personnel. Murdering civilians is not an act of war. It's just murder and the world, rightly or otherwise, has agreed to not engage in certain acts, many of which Hamas commits frequently. I didn't make the rules. You appear to be under the misapprehension that it's a one or the other deal: either they are innocent or the are guilty as a monobloc. That's not what I, meant but if I constructed my sentences poorly, that's on me.

Once again I bid you place yourself in the position of the Israelis, forgetting the questions of whose land it really is because it is irrelevant to the issue in question. People living peaceably in their homes were attacked and murdered en masse. In my view far too many people seem to be defending this. I find the entire affair distasteful and utterly counterproductive. You may find differently. That's why we discuss these things - to better understand the issues and one another. Getting all excited and calling people liars and provocateurs really isn't helping things. YMMV.

In their place, I dare you to tell me you would stand idly and watch your family murdered. And once again, in case you missed it the several times I have repeated it in this thread, there is PLENTY OF BLAME TO GO AROUND, ISRAEL INCLUDED. <-- Note the bright red color! Is the statement clear in its meaning to you? I'm no apologist for Israel, but right action is right action, even for assholes, and once again lest ye mistake my meaning here, most of the people involved are asses and have demonstrated this time and again for 70 years. But to be fair to both parties, they each claim the same space as their own. I'm sure they each see it as such with a more or less clean conscience. So each is pursuing his claim in direct opposition to that of the other. Once again so you don't mistunderstand: Mr. Rock, meet Mr. Hardplace. It's a shitty situation that, given the fundamental assumptions of the parties involved, appears to be intractable. Or do you see one or both parties coming to some compromise? I do not, but then again it is not something on which I expend much thought.

 

[osan]

Palestinians TRIED the nice way with global - everyone except the Jewish State and the United States in the WORLD.

And what way was that? We can as easily say that Israel tried the nice way. Blind assertions demonstrate nothing valid.

Blame to go around. The Israelis have done some pretty shitty things, and so have the Palestinians. This latest event is on the latter and to blame Israel for being pissed and retaliating is not reasonable. This is not a defense of Israel in any broad terms, but only in the context of what Hamas did. Nobody is obliged to idly allow others to murder them.

Everytime the UN would vote to hold the Jewish State accountable for its endless crimes - US veto.

Assuming this as fact, what has any of it to do with Hamas' most recent attack? How does this oblige Israel to stand down?

When a stranger comes at you with a knife on the street, are you only going to keep running away, allowing him opportunity upon opportunity to try again? I produce my sidearm and drill the motherfucker until he stops moving.

Then the US took it on the chin with Israel attacked the USS Liberty.
Then the US worked for peace and a two-state solution for decades.

All true so far as I can tell, but those events have no direct link to this one, do they?

Didn't work because Israel's right-wing murdered Rabin and Arafat.

Arafat was no boy scout. He was offered a fairly good deal as I recall, and do correct me if I'm mistaken, and Arafat told them to shove it. So what we have are two hard-heads refusing to give an inch.

What I seen, and again I may be mistaken, are two "states" vying for utter supremacy over the other, willing to give little to nothing, hate each other blindly, and will continue fighting until one or both are cleansed from the earth. But that is still orthogonal to the point in question here: does Israelis hold the right to defend themselves, and I contend that they do, just as do the Palestinians. If they'd all stop acting like dicks, this would all come to an end. But that is apparently asking too much.

So right now, after Israel created this same militant Hamas decades ago, they lose control of it.

Well, karma's a bitch.

Israel is trying to enforce the Kushner Plan - all Palestinians out of Israel. By force this time.

They should have done that in 1947, practically speaking. It is clear that Muslims and Jews cannot live together for the most part, especially in that region. I don't really care who started it, either. They are all foobs so far as I'm concerned with all the wearing of their religions on their sleeves as miserable strokes to their sad little egos.

That said, I'm sure there is all manner of hanky panky going on with the Israelis, as well as the Palestinians.

You have to understand that the political support in Israel is 70/30 hard right vs reasonable people.
And that a large part of the right wants to create Eretz Israel and build the Third Temple where the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa stand.
And the reasonable people like ours are being manipulated to support ethnic cleansing and false narratives about Israel's bloody history and bloody future. If they get their way, the next thing to go will be the Christian churches. The Jewish State became a sore on the world because they made it so. They are the guilty and they are the problem.

All believable. Fortunately for me, I'm old, don't give a shit if they kill each other to the last man. The more I see from the middle east, the less I like any of them. But still, the attack was pretty shitty. If you're a big boy warrior, then act like it. Attack IDF installations like men and don't hide amid children like pussies. If you really believe you get your 72 black-eyed virgins, you should be way eager to face the great Satan Israel and be killed in the name of Allah's war against the Eville Joo. But they don't do any of that, so their plight comes under some suspicion due to big talk and little walk.

 

[Snowball]

osan, the right wingers in Israel control Netanyahu. The deal you're talking about was rejected by Netanyahu and all governments in Israel since the 1990's when the neocons took over US policy. In 95 they assassinated Yitsak Rabin. Then, eventually Arafat. Israel stopped the two state solution. Now, Israel is on the road to hell. The only way they don't drag the whole world into hell is if they restrain themselves and act reasonably. As of right now, they have no intention of doing so. They plan to go into Gaza where they know Hamas has tens of thousands of warriors and booby traps. Thousands of IDF will die. The Arabs and Iran will get involved and so will our country. As of right now, there's over a 75% chance the United States is at war TOMORROW. This is to try and stop Israel from using nuclear weapons. They want to blow up the Dome of the Rock which is why Al-Aqsa Flood happened. 800+ rabbis were there and declared it to be theirs to build the Third Temple with animal sacrifice. We are headed to the End Times bro. Good Luck.

 

[acptulsa]

Assuming this as fact, what has any of it to do with Hamas' most recent attack? How does this oblige Israel to stand down?

This:

They want to blow up the Dome of the Rock which is why Al-Aqsa Flood happened. 800+ rabbis were there and declared it to be theirs to build the Third Temple with animal sacrifice. We are headed to the End Times bro. Good Luck.

Stranger with a knife? Seriously? Israel moved in on the Palestinians sixty-five years ago, and set up a Home Owners Association designed to plow Palestinian preferences under. These aren't strangers, not any more.

Israel is making overt moves to tear down the third holiest structure (as far as Muslims are concerned) on the face of the earth. Now, who (if anyone at all, except maybe you) expects Islamics to take that lying down? Is that a reasonable expectation?

 

[Snowball]

Tel Aviv protests. Netanyahu has already murdered at least 20-30 Israeli hostages including Americans by bombing Gaza.

If he sticks to the invasion, all the rest will die. He is sacrificing their lives for his crazy plans. The only reason it didn't start already is the weather. Iran made it's last ditch effort to stop it. They talked at the highest level. All they want is the prisoner swap and talks.

 

[sparebulb]

To get a little real life humor in all of this, the discredited friend of Alex Jones, Steve Pieczenik, CIA asset and Cuban joooww, claims to despise NuttyYahoo.

He said that NuttyYahoo was literally a futon salesman in the US before he reinvented himself as an Israeli death hawk.

 

[69360]

Tel Aviv protests. Netanyahu has already murdered at least 20-30 Israeli hostages including Americans by bombing Gaza.

If he sticks to the invasion, all the rest will die. He is sacrificing their lives for his crazy plans. The only reason it didn't start already is the weather. Iran made it's last ditch effort to stop it. They talked at the highest level. All they want is the prisoner swap and talks.

I'm not so sure that rain was the reason. I'm hoping it is second thoughts on the part of the Israelis. If they roll tanks into Gaza all hell is going to break loose. This will escalate into a major war. Hezbollah is going to launch real Iranian missles, not homemade junk like Hamas uses, at major cities. Then the US will try to take out Hezbollah, drawing Iran into the war. Hezbollah and Iran have the means to take out US carriers. If Iran launches cruise missles at Israel, I would not be surprised if the Israelis launch nukes at Iran.The Israelis have shown zero care about civilian deaths to this point, so I think they would have no restraint about using their nukes.

 

[osan]

This:



Stranger with a knife? Seriously? Israel moved in on the Palestinians sixty-five years ago, and set up a Home Owners Association designed to plow Palestinian preferences under. These aren't strangers, not any more.

Israel is making overt moves to tear down the third holiest structure (as far as Muslims are concerned) on the face of the earth. Now, who (if anyone at all, except maybe you) expects Islamics to take that lying down? Is that a reasonable expectation?

You did read the part where I wrote there is blame to go around, yes?

Christ's sake man, take a pill.

 

[osan]

Tel Aviv protests. Netanyahu has already murdered at least 20-30 Israeli hostages including Americans by bombing Gaza.

Murder may not be the right word.

Then again...

If he sticks to the invasion, all the rest will die.

That has been Israeli policy since day one. Hostages are regarded as POWs. All Jewish Israelis are aware of this. If they don't like the risk, they are free to move elsewhere.

He is sacrificing their lives for his crazy plans.

Plans? I don't normally follow middle east affairs. What plans would those be?

 

[osan]

I'm not so sure that rain was the reason. I'm hoping it is second thoughts on the part of the Israelis. If they roll tanks into Gaza all hell is going to break loose. This will escalate into a major war. Hezbollah is going to launch real Iranian missles, not homemade junk like Hamas uses, at major cities. Then the US will try to take out Hezbollah, drawing Iran into the war. Hezbollah and Iran have the means to take out US carriers. If Iran launches cruise missles at Israel, I would not be surprised if the Israelis launch nukes at Iran.The Israelis have shown zero care about civilian deaths to this point, so I think they would have no restraint about using their nukes.

Seems likely the case. They all hate Israel, justly or otherwise. Israel doesn't seem so fond of them either.

And of course we will likely get dragged into it. A wild twist would be if Biden sent in troops to support the Arabs. I don't see it likely, but cannot quite bring myself to dismiss it. OTOH, if he sends in troops on Israel's side, the left would go rage-wailing until the earth split in half.

 

[Snowball]

The Single Most Dangerous Thing To ALL Humanity-The Jewish Kingdom
https://odysee.com/@IsraeliNewsLive:a/new-movie-(21).movie:7

 

[acptulsa]

 

[Firestarter]

What if the masterplan is an ethnic cleansing of Palestine, of course with mass migration the the EU and UK?!?

1) First they stage a false flag attack;
2) Then they throw bombs on Gaza, while shutting down food, water, and energy;
3) Warn them to leave the north of Gaza to travel south, with treaths of even more bombs and a land invasion;

4) Open the border to Egypt, where they are already crowded in an even smaller piece of land than the Gaza strip?!?
What would you do?

 

[acptulsa]

What if the masterplan is an ethnic cleansing of Palestine, of course with mass migration the the EU and UK?!?

1) First they stage a false flag attack;
2) Then they throw bombs on Gaza, while shutting down food, water, and energy;
3) Warn them to leave the north of Gaza to travel south, with treaths of even more bombs and a land invasion;

4) Open the border to Egypt, where they are already crowded in an even smaller piece of land than the Gaza strip?!?
What would you do?

I'd give Israel a bunch of U.S. weapons, give Hamas (created by Israel) a bunch of U.S. weapons, stand one on each side of the Gaza Strip, and holler, "Fire!"

But since I'd never involve myself in their business of my own accord, I guess all I can do is shout from the rooftops that D.C. is evil and needs to be nuked.

 

[69360]

I'd give Israel a bunch of U.S. weapons, give Hamas (created by Israel) a bunch of U.S. weapons, stand one on each side of the Gaza Strip, and holler, "Fire!"

But since I'd never involve myself in their business of my own accord, I guess all I can do is shout from the rooftops that D.C. is evil and needs to be nuked.

How about don't get involved at all?

 

[Brian4Liberty]

https://freedomisobvious.blogspot.com/2023/10/hamas-half-baked-attack-on-israel.html

...Given the long history of strife in the area by the usual cast of characters, it is also clear that Hamas had to have been keenly aware of the response they could expect in return for their treachery.
...
There is no doubt that Hamas knew all this would happen.

Very true. What was the real agenda? Follow the money and cui bono.

Did they want to put an end to some of the treaties being signed between Israel and other nations? Who will get more money from this?

This post was interesting:

...
https://twitter.com/RealSpikeCohen/status/1712677791114707214
& https://twitter.com/RealSpikeCohen/status/1712678708253761987
{Spike Cohen @RealSpikeCohen | 12 October 2023}
...
Hamas murders innocent Israelis, and many more innocent Palestinians.

They take out anyone in Gaza who opposes them.

They fight against any Palestinian organization that wants to actually negotiate with Israel.

Their leadership are millionaires and billionaires, many of whom live nowhere near Gaza.
...

That certainly makes one think that there are money trails to be followed.

It seems that Hamas consists of corrupt oligarchs who retain power via masses of brainwashed Marxist victims. How will they profit from this new war? How will they gain (or retain) more power from this?

Furthermore, to label the Palestinians as in any way being mere and innocent civilians (small children excepted) carries an equally foul stench. In order to be genuinely innocent, they would have to stand in sincere and open disapproval of Hamas' existence. Tolerance of an official policy that says "death to Israel" cannot be reasonably taken as innocent, even in the face of threats to anyone daring to speak out. If a Palestinian disapproves of Hamas, then he should take whatever action he is able to thwart and erode the designs of Hamas. Granted, it may not be possible to do much that is immediately and directly effective, given that we are speaking of a terrorist organization which has shown its eager will to spill blood pursuant to their goals and objectives.
...

What is a simple civilian trapped in the Gaza strip to do? One can certainly feel for their situation, ruled over by corrupt oligarchs and war mongers who retain power via masses of brainwashed Marxist victims.

That seems familiar. It hits a little too close to home for many Americans. What's an innocent American to do?

I will go out on a short limb and assert that Hamas was not only aware of what would happen in the aftermath of their blood-bath, but that those consequences were in fact the point of the exercise.
...

No doubt.

Unless there was indeed some deeply concealed Israeli conspiracy to precipitate this attack in the spirit of a false-flag, only better,...

You never know. Once again, follow the money and cui bono. Rather than being intimately involved, there is also the LIHOP strategy to be considered.

No one in the US MIC will be poorer or less powerful because of this. As a matter of fact, it's full employment for disgraced neocons these days. Never let a tragedy go to waste.

I find the whole situation horrifying and repellent, pitying and despising all at once those who have chosen to embroil themselves in a destructive tantrum that shows no end in sight and whose practical sense leaves everything to be desired. To find this rivalry profitable, as doubtlessly some on both sides do, is distasteful in the extreme, and is worthy of nothing better than our deepest disdain.
...

Agree.