Government, religion, and "secular" vs. "religious"

[acptulsa]

Well one advantage of a statute is that in enables you to know exactly what the law requires ahead of time, instead of having someone else decide after-the-fact that what you did was wrong and that you'll be punished for it.

Yeah, uh, all I have to say is I honestly hope you spend the rest of your life never experiencing how absolutely dead wrong you are. You clearly have no idea how many statutes there are and how easy it is to get caught breaking one. The only reason you're not in prison is because nobody actively wants you in prison.

It's worse than that, though.

Jesus was about to deliver a sermon one Sabbath day but everyone was hungry. So they went and picked some food that was growing there and had a bite of lunch.

Of course there were Pharisees there looking for trouble to cause, because then or now, any gathering of five or more people attracts officious hypocrites bent on causing trouble. And they insisted that people picking a piece of fruit off a tree to eat was harvesting, and work, and a violation of the Sabbath.

Jesus said, God didn't create man to serve God's law. God created His law to serve man. God's law isn't rigid. It doesn't ignore context. Jesus didn't teach it by quoting statutes, He taught it by telling parables. That's the kind of law that can serve the society subject to it. Anything rigid has less to do with maintaining a civil society than controlling people. Rigid laws are nothing but an attempt to make people into robots.

Maybe the joke's on me and he's into that shit, I don't know. But, yeah, the only reason he's not in prison -- yet -- is because nobody in a position of power wants him there -- yet.

 

[nobody's_hero]

It isn't really a matter of both things being "equal" (whatever that might mean). [1]

It isn't even a matter of either or both of them being some kind of "wrong" or not.

It's a matter of everyone being forced to subsidize one or the other.



Of course - and so long as there are "public" schools, there is no possible way around that.

That is because the nature of "public" schools is the source of the lack of "balance" or "neutrality". [1]

When it comes to whatever is or isn't prohibited or mandated in "public" schools, it is guaranteed that someone's oxen will be gored while someone else's oxen will be subsidized.



[1] The lack of "equality" - or of "balance" or "neutrality" - will be present even in private schools, as well, of course. It is inescapable. By doing one thing, one necessarily cannot do the opposite thing. But at least those who favor one thing over the other won't be forced to subsidize the opposite thing.

Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part.

To further explain the point I was trying to make, when one insists that it would be better to keep the status quo, rather than commit another 'wrong' (such as, reintroducing the display of the 10 Commandments into public schools, which, again, in my opinion, is the least of our nation's worries at this point in time), it is, for all intents and purposes, favoring secular dogma over religious dogma. It may not be the intent, but it is the outcome, and the pushback is predictable, even if it might be short-sighted.

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I would take a more relaxed, scientific approach to it. Let these states post the 10 Commandments in their schools. See if there is any measurable reduction in crime, suicides, poverty, etc. etc.. Then we can revisit the issue in a few decades and determine if it was truly all that detrimental. I do believe that the garbage that they're teaching kids now is doing catastrophic harm, purposely intended to confuse the moral principles of their developing minds.

 

[PAF]

Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part.

To further explain the point I was trying to make, when one insists that it would be better to keep the status quo, rather than commit another 'wrong' (such as, reintroducing the display of the 10 Commandments into public schools, which, again, in my opinion, is the least of our nation's worries at this point in time), it is, for all intents and purposes, favoring secular dogma over religious dogma. It may not be the intent, but it is the outcome, and the pushback is predictable, even if it might be short-sighted.

----------------
I would take a more relaxed, scientific approach to it. Let these states post the 10 Commandments in their schools. See if there is any measurable reduction in crime, suicides, poverty, etc. etc.. Then we can revisit the issue in a few decades and determine if it was truly all that detrimental. I do believe that the garbage that they're teaching kids now is doing catastrophic harm, purposely intended to confuse the moral principles of their developing minds.

I do not want to pay any more tax on top of what I am already paying, to pay for any such things for all classrooms in each and every school throughout the entire state, nor do I want to pay additional taxes for such public school "studies" over the next several decades.

The proper solution is to eliminate public indoctrination schools, not entice them to remain open.

And folks wonder why we continue to incrementally slide downward with more reliance on the state.

 

[PAF]

RE: Government Promotion of Religion

FYI: This is a way for politicians/government to appease and entice the people to accept government indoctrination schools, rather than to defund and eliminate them.

 

[nobody's_hero]

I do not want to pay any more tax on top of what I am already paying, to pay for any such things for all classrooms in each and every school throughout the entire state, nor do I want to pay additional taxes for such public school "studies" over the next several decades.

I would think it would be evident, TBH, to anyone observing. I did not mean to imply that there should be any publicly funded studies to determine if the statistics improved. Kind of like how people say the economy was or wasn't better under Trump. I don't really need a 'study', I can just look out my window and see that for myself.

I believe there is a correlation between the adamant efforts to remove God from schools in the latter half of the 20th century, and the disaster of a society we've slid into. That's not a legal argument, or a constitutional one, just an observation. And, it's why I just, honestly, can't really get that animated about this issue. If it's your sword to fall on/hill to die on, that's fine, but as I said in the other thread, the forces that want to push God out of schools have enough help, they don't need mine.

Full disclaimer: I'm one of the suckers in America who doesn't even have kids and yet nearly 3/4ths of my property taxes annually go towards funding a failing school system where I live. I'll gladly counteract your disdain for being made to pay for a poster of the 10 commandments in each classroom, and counter with an argument that posting the 10 commandments would probably be one of the least meaningless expenditures that our school system has wasted my money on, since I first bought property here.

 

[Swordsmyth]

No, I'm being stunned and amazed that you really think your every random thought really needs to be said out loud. It's an incredibly arrogant, insensitive notion.



This illustrates your point better:

Your blather is pretty pointless, but your head...

Some people go through this life putting a little effort into not making other people cringe.

You just keep proving my point more.

 

[acptulsa]

Your blather is pretty pointless, but your head...

You just keep proving my point more.

That's better. The first step is admitting there's a problem.

Now, the second step is, stop sticking it in the pencil sharpener. There are better ways to get a haircut.

 

[Swordsmyth]

That's better. The first step is admitting there's a problem.

Now, the second step is, stop sticking it in the pencil sharpener. There are better ways to get a haircut.

Keep it up, you're proving that you're nothing but a toxic garbage poster.

 

[acptulsa]

Drivel.

If you want to waste your time on 7th Day Adventist nonsense feel free to do so.
You'll have that much less time to spend on garbage posts.

So, you hope that Her family has the added pain and fear of it having been foul play [says the person who brought the subject up for no reason whatsoever]?

Keep it up, you're proving that you're nothing but a toxic garbage poster.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Me: calls out cultist nonsense.
You: attacks me to defend cultist nonsense
Me: points out the low quality of your posts
You: tells me that my post of concern for a grieving family is an example of a garbage post
Me: replies that the only way it could be garbage is if you want the bad possibility to be true
You: tells me I should just shut up and not post at all because you don't like me
Me: points out that you are proving what I said about your posts
You: replies with personal insults repeatedly


I think everyone can see who is the problem here.

 

[acptulsa]

 

[Snowball]

He was now delivered up to the secular authorities and led away to the place of execution. An immense procession followed, hundreds of men at arms, priests and bishops in their costly robes, and the inhabitants of Constance. When he had been fastened to the stake, and all was ready for the fire to be lighted, the martyr was once more exhorted to save himself by renouncing his errors. “What errors,” said Huss, “shall I renounce? I know myself guilty of none. I call God to witness that all that I have written and preached has been with the view of rescuing souls from sin and perdition; and, therefore, most joyfully will I confirm with my blood that truth which I have written and preached.”—Ibid., b. 3, ch. 7. When the flames kindled about him, he began to sing, “Jesus, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me,” and so continued till his voice was silenced forever. Even his enemies were struck with his heroic bearing. A zealous papist, describing the martyrdom of Huss, and of Jerome, who died soon after, said: “Both bore themselves with constant mind when their last hour approached. They prepared for the fire as if they were going to a marriage feast. They uttered no cry of pain. When the flames rose, they began to sing hymns; and scarce could the vehemency of the fire stop their singing.”—Ibid., b. 3, ch. 7. When the body of Huss had been wholly consumed, his ashes, with the soil upon which they rested, were gathered up and cast into the Rhine, and thus borne onward to the ocean. His persecutors vainly imagined that they had rooted out the truths he preached. Little did they dream that the ashes that day borne away to the sea were to be as seed scattered in all the countries of the earth; that in lands yet unknown it would yield abundant fruit in witnesses for the truth. The voice which had spoken in the council hall of Constance had wakened echoes that would be heard through all coming ages. Huss was no more, but the truths for which he died could never perish. His example of faith and constancy would encourage multitudes to stand firm for the truth, in the face of torture and death. His execution had exhibited to the whole world the perfidious cruelty of Rome. The enemies of truth, though they knew it not, had been furthering the cause which they vainly sought to destroy.


Be careful what you wish for.

Be careful who you quote history from. Ellen G. White propaganda above.

 

[redmod79]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxe's_Book_of_Martyrs

 

[ClaytonB]

Huss

Teaching the Bible in school is not the Roman Catholic Church burning people it denounces as heretics, nor is it on a "slippery-slope" to the latter. We have tried the "secular" formula for six or seven decades now. It's what gave us children being butchered on a surgical table in the name of being "Woke", whatever that is. There are a few options available:

a) (BEST) Separate government and education. Allow parents to choose the school their children attend, or homeschool them. End truancy laws, etc.

b) Prohibit all promotion of homosexuality or other "alternative" lifestyles in the government schools. Stop and reverse the "secular" trend back to the 1950's or so, when it was permissible for a teacher to lead their class in prayer, if they so chose, as well as teach from the Bible.

c) Failing these, then impose mandates like the Oklahoma one in this article. We already tried the supposedly "neutral" option. It turns out it's not neutral. This is not the best alternative (either a or b is preferable), but "no response" to The Agenda is the same as a rubber-stamp on it. There must be and will be a response. This is how Oklahoma has chosen to respond. Good for them.

 

[redmod79]

You have an awful lot of faith that the government will stay in its boundaries. Do you have any examples in the history of mankind to make such a claim?

 

[acptulsa]

So, you hope that Her family has the added pain and fear of it having been foul play?
You're illustrating my point.

Gotta love the prog-logic. If you're not for a federal ED, you don't want kids to learn. If you don't want the insensitive clod to holler, "Hope the plane don't crash!" you want the plane to crash.

 

[ClaytonB]

You have an awful lot of faith that the government will stay in its boundaries. Do you have any examples in the history of mankind to make such a claim?

I assume that's directed to me. Go read option (a), which I specifically said is BEST (get government out of education completely). I have zero faith in the State. But 99% of the public does not see things the way I do, and that's OK. Most of them have not read or studied the topic as much as I have. My hope is that, one day, they will understand why the State must be everywhere opposed but, in the meantime, I'll settle for pragmatic measures that have a reasonable chance of leading to minor improvements. This Oklahoma decision is more symbolic than anything. It's planting a flag in the sand and challenging the rabid Woke ideologues to do something about it. Let's take this up to SCOTUS, or maybe we even need to have a Con-con and set clear limits. Either way, doing nothing is not an option. The trauma patient is gushing their last few pints of blood, the hemorrhage must be staunched. Action must be taken.

 

[acptulsa]

Let's take this up to SCOTUS...

Having "Secular" Humanism officially declared a religion would be an interesting development. And a very useful step.

 

[Sonny Tufts]

Yeah, uh, all I have to say is I honestly hope you spend the rest of your life never experiencing how absolutely dead wrong you are. You clearly have no idea how many statutes there are and how easy it is to get caught breaking one. The only reason you're not in prison is because nobody actively wants you in prison.

I have been dealing with statutes for over 50 years, and I can assure you that my clients and I rely on them in planning business and personal matters. I'm not just talking about criminal statutes, but also civil statutes that offer assurance that a transaction to be entered into won't have adverse consequences -- e.g., that the trust I set up won't be included in the client's gross estate for estate tax purposes because it doesn't have any of the provisions that would cause inclusion under Sections 2033-2045 of the IRC.

 

[PAF]

The Satanic Temple Makes Plans to Come to Oklahoma Schools

Jun 9, 2024


The Satanic Temple announced official plans Friday to participate in Oklahoma's release for religious instruction law for public school students that kicks in this November.

OKLAHOMA CITY (KFOR) – The Satanic Temple announced official plans Friday to participate in Oklahoma’s release for religious instruction law for public school students. The law would take effect in November. Oklahoma State Department of Education Superintendent Ryan Walters reacted to the announcement.

“I’m going to clear this up. No, the Satanists are not coming into our schools. Satanism is not a religion,” said Walters.


“We are in fact a religious organization, we’ve been found to be such by not only the IRS (Internal Revenue Service) but a federal ruling has upheld that standing,” said Spokesperson for The Satanic Temple Lucien Greaves.

.

The Satanic Temple is not to be confused with The Church of Satan. The Temple states that, “We have publicly confronted hate groups, fought for the abolition of corporal punishment in public schools...


Continues:

https://kfor.com/news/the-satanic-temple-makes-plans-to-come-to-oklahoma-schools/

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