Government gives rights?

Rights: life, liberty property
Function of government: protect those rights

QFT you would be amazed how many folks disagree with this and will fight you tooth and nail on this issue.

I am on a certain religious web board and was flamed because I made this exact statement and was told the church was such a horrible failure at aiding their congregation (and society at large) through hard times that it was the governments responsibilty to make sure those less fortunate were cared for in times of need. I then posed what exactly was a church's responsibilty then? I was informed solely to worship. They neglect the commision to care for the less fortunate. She also was rather adamant there was nothing wrong with McChurches and big screen televisions used for worship, much less the chandeliers and luxurious accoutrements found in many churches nowadays which I said could be money used for the less fortunate she wanted society at large responsible for...Why have people lost faith in spiritual organizations????
 
Always the attempt to make something more simple, when in reality it is monstrously complex.


Take for instance the idea that the Government protects rights. I don't disagree, but what does that mean?

Who's rights? The individuals? What individuals?

History shows us the nature of this fallacy. The government did not protect men and women from becoming property of other men. Surely any definition of rights would begin with a right to your own personhood....

We have progressed in this country, in a liberal way, with the troglodytes of regressive thinking kicking and screaming along the way. You know them by their content, whining about socialism, pitching a fit about abortion, decrying the country as a Christian Nation, Muslims are all terrorists, and pluralism is a malignant cancer on society.

These people have existed in majority throughout time, and they exist on these boards in an overwhelming flood. I don't need to speak to them, only rebut them, and the good, real, liberty minded people will see that I speak the truth, and that I speak of the nature of men's rights and freedoms, at a fundamental level.

We, the Promethians of our age, demand a greater respect to the newly realized rights of our time. We find ways around the current powers, the current struggle, to demand these freedoms, these rationalized liberties for all men, including the brooding majority that makes up the uninformed and ignorant masses.

Each successive generation, the greats of our time, were, simply put, the most liberal people, the most radical in their defense of individual rights.

We are losing it in this country, because the opposition has found a loophole, one that was explained readily by Bernay in the 20s, and nearly 80 years later, has come to be used against us... who ironically, fight for you, with your spit in our eyes, and your vitriol nonsense lies stapled on our backs.

Think about what you are doing, and who you are talking about... you are a fledging breakoff group from the main beast, the beast you don't realize you support, the real tyranny.

Open your eyes.
 
orly

Government grants rights? I think they're too busy stealing from us, killing us, imprisoning us, and enslaving us to worry about granting rights. Rights have been protected under anarchies (they are always there, imo) so thats pretty much proof government is not necessary to protect our rights. Only you can take your rights away from yourself. If you take the view that government grants us rights, then they can never infringe on them right? Because they decide which rights we ought to have and to what extent. Sorry jews in 1940's europe. Your rights weren't infringed upon and your slaughter was entirely legal and legitimate. :rolleyes:
 
There seems to be a lack of distinction here between rights granted by the Creator through Nature, and the duty of government to protect those rights.

John Locke, from his Second Treatise of Government:

C H A P. I I I.

Of the State of War.

Sect. 16. THE state of war is a state of enmity and destruction: and therefore declaring by word or action, not a passionate and hasty, but a sedate settled design upon another man's life, puts him in a state of war with him against whom he has declared such an intention, and so has exposed his life to the other's power to be taken away by him, or any one that joins with him in his defence, and espouses his quarrel; it being reasonable and just, I should have a right to destroy that which threatens me with destruction: for, by the fundamental law of nature, man being to be preserved as much as possible, when all cannot be preserved, the safety of the innocent is to be preferred: and one may destroy a man who makes war upon him, or has discovered an enmity to his being, for the same reason that he may kill a wolf or a lion; because such men are not under the ties of the commonlaw of reason, have no other rule, but that of force and violence, and so may be treated as beasts of prey, those dangerous and noxious creatures, that will be sure to destroy him whenever he falls into their power.

Sect, 17. And hence it is, that he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power, does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life: for I have reason to conclude, that he who would get me into his power without my consent, would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it; for no body can desire to have me in his absolute power, unless it be to compel me by force to that which is against the right of my freedom, i.e. make me a slave. To be free from such force is the only security of my preservation; and reason bids me look on him, as an enemy to my preservation, who would take away that freedom which is the fence to it; so that he who makes an attempt to enslave me, thereby puts himself into a state of war with me. He that, in the state of nature, would take away the freedom that belongs to any one in that state, must necessarily be supposed to have a design to take away everything else, that freedom being the foundation of all the rest; as he that, in the state of society, would take away the freedom belonging to those of that society or commonwealth, must be supposed to design to take away from them every thing else, and so be looked on as in a state of war.

Sect. 18. This makes it lawful for a man to kill a thief, who has not in the least hurt him, nor declared any design upon his life, any farther than, by the use of force, so to get him in his power, as to take away his money, or what he pleases, from him; because using force, where he has no right, to get me into his power, let his pretence be what it will, I have no reason to suppose, that he, who would take away my liberty, would not, when he had me in his power, take away every thing else. And therefore it is lawful for me to treat him as one who has put himself into a state of war with me, i.e. kill him if I can; for to that hazard does he justly expose himself, whoever introduces a state of war, and is aggressor in it.

Sect. 19. And here we have the plain difference between the state of nature and the state of war, which however some men have confounded, are as far distant, as a state of peace, good will, mutual assistance and preservation, and a state of enmity, malice, violence and mutual destruction, are one from another....

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/locke/locke2/locke2nd-a.html

Sect. 123. IF man in the state of nature be so free, as has been said; if he be absolute lord of his own person and possessions, equal to the greatest, and subject to no body, why will he part with his freedom? why will he give up this empire, and subject himself to the dominion and controul of any other power? To which it is obvious to answer, that though in the state of nature he hath such a right, yet the enjoyment of it is very uncertain, and constantly exposed to the invasion of others: for all being kings as much as he, every man his equal, and the greater part no strict observers of equity and justice, the enjoyment of the property he has in this state is very unsafe, very unsecure. This makes him willing to quit a condition, which, however free, is full of fears and continual dangers: and it is not without reason, that he seeks out, and is willing to join in society with others, who are already united, or have a mind to unite, for the mutual preservation of their lives, liberties and estates, which I call by the general name, property.

Sect. 124. The great and chief end, therefore, of men's uniting into commonwealths, and putting themselves under government, is the preservation of their property. To which in the state of nature there are man y things wanting.

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/locke/locke2/locke2nd-c.html#CHAP. IX.
 
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I don't see any way in being able to justify having true rights unless you believe in God. I don't happen to and nature obviously doesn't grant rights as we know them (see TMike's post).

Realistically (that is, if you remove "inherent morality"), people don't kill others out of self-interest and fear that they themselves would be murdered if society didn't protect them (it's thus very ironic that the gov't is given the privilege of executing people). The "Golden Rule" is not a rule so much as a declaration of human reasoning.
 
I don't see any way in being able to justify having true rights unless you believe in God. I don't happen to and nature obviously doesn't grant rights as we know them (see TMike's post).

Realistically (that is, if you remove "inherent morality"), people don't kill others out of self-interest and fear that they themselves would be murdered if society didn't protect them (it's thus very ironic that the gov't is given the privilege of executing people). The "Golden Rule" is not a rule so much as a declaration of human reasoning.

That's kind of the kicker. If you don't believe you have inalienable rights, you don't.
 
That's kind of the kicker. If you don't believe you have inalienable rights, you don't.

Rights must be defended, not just spoken of as truth. It isn't the kicker. People are willing to disallow certain rights, and those people ought to be fought, hard.

Those people exist on these forums under the guise of Ron Paul supporters.

Just go look at a TONES post.
 
Kludge;1779371[B said:
]I don't see any way in being able to justify having true rights unless you believe in God. I don't happen to and nature obviously doesn't grant rights as we know them (see TMike's post).

Realistically (that is, if you remove "inherent morality"), people don't kill others out of self-interest and fear that they themselves would be murdered if society didn't protect them (it's thus very ironic that the gov't is given the privilege of executing people). The "Golden Rule" is not a rule so much as a declaration of human reasoning.

Thats not true at all. Read the first part of For A New Liberty by Rothbard. He lays out a very convincing case for natural rights (granted by nature). Although I do believe in a higher power, just not in the way most people do.
 
Thats not true at all. Read the first part of For A New Liberty by Rothbard. He lays out a very convincing case for natural rights (granted by nature). Although I do believe in a higher power, just not in the way most people do.

Instead of waiting a week and paying $20 for something I doubt I'll read again, could you summarize his reasoning?
 
Rights must be defended, not just spoken of as truth. It isn't the kicker. People are willing to disallow certain rights, and those people ought to be fought, hard.

Those people exist on these forums under the guise of Ron Paul supporters.

Just go look at a TONES post.

:) No argument from me.

I am, perhaps, not in the right state of mind to effectively argue my point today. My point, however, is simply that if one is willing to lay down for the lion, one cannot expect the government to intervene on one's behalf. That in itself should be a major consideration in the notion that our rights are granted by government.
 
This was good too, from page 27:

Natural law theory rests on the insight that we live in a
world of more than one—in fact, a vast number—of entities, and that each
entity has distinct and specific properties, a distinct “na ture,” which can be
investigated by man’s reason, by his sense perception and mental faculties.
Copper has a distinct nature and behaves in a certain way, and so do iron,
salt, etc. The species man, therefore, has a specifiable nature, as does the
world around him and the ways of interaction between them. To put it
with undue brevity, the activity of each inorganic and organic entity is
determined by its own nature and by the nature of the other entities with
which it comes in contact. Specifically, while the behavior of plants and at
least the lower animals is determined by their biological nature or perhaps
by their “instincts,” the nature of man is such that each individual person
must, in order to act, choose his own ends and employ his own means in
order to attain them. Possessing no automatic instincts, each man must
learn about himself and the world, use his mind to select values, learn
about cause and effect, and act purposively to maintain himself and
advance his life. Since men can think, feel, evaluate, and act only as
individuals, it becomes vitally necessary for each man’s survival and
prosperity that he be free to learn, choose, develop his faculties, and act
upon his knowledge and values. This is the necessary path of human
nature; to interfere with and cripple this process by using violence goes
profoundly against what is necessary by man’s nature for his life and
prosperity. Violent interference with a man’s learning and choices is
therefore profoundly “antihuman”; it violates the natural law of man’s
needs.
 
Rights are natural and exist without government and cannot be taken away.

Really? Bang! You're dead. I just took away your right to life, government or no government, God or no God.

Our rights are what we agree they are. The only argument is which set of rules creates the most orderly and free society.
 
Really? Bang! You're dead. I just took away your right to life, government or no government, God or no God.

Our rights are what we agree they are.

What you've done is infringed on that person's right to life. What you've also done is remove your own right to life. Thats how I see it. If I steal your money, I haven't removed your right to own that money. You can still reclaim it for yourself. If i removed your right to own that money then you would have no business going after me to get it back, right?
 
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