Got into an argument with my political science professor today

[nate895]

Jefferson abolished income taxes and ran the government from tariffs. Are tariffs a form of protectionism?

A small tariff

 

[socialize_me]

Jefferson abolished income taxes and ran the government from tariffs. Are tariffs a form of protectionism?

What the FUCK? There weren't income taxes back in the early 1800's!! What are you smoking??

Lincoln passed the first income tax in 1862 I believe which led to riots. Think if they tried passing an income tax in fuckin' 1804...you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Tariffs were established before Jefferson was even president. What books have you been fuckin' reading?

 

[nate895]

In the Napoleonic Wars he blocked Britain and France access to American ports. Americans suffered greatly and it jump started the American industries.



Yeah, I favor Jefferson's writings over his presidency.

Access to ports is a military procedure, and is customary in a time of war when you wish to maintain neutrality to restrict belligerent port access. Ultimately, when one side or the other starts having to use your ports more often because they are losing, the other side will claim that you are really just being an ally, will declare you a belligerent, and go to war.

Same thing almost happened in the Civil War because the Union and European powers would constantly square off on what were legitimate Confederate port activities.

 

[MCockerill08]

Jefferson was a MAJOR PROPONENT of the Constitution if I'm not mistaken.

Isn't it reasonable to infer him to be a constitutionalist (though not necessarily 100% libertarian) like Ron Paul rather than a "loose constructionist," like Obama?

 

[Kalifornia]

Your professor got confused. what he meant to say is that Jefferson's philosophy is what the modern liberal SHOULD be, except that modern liberals have been coopted by socialism/communism/statism.

 

[Philmanoman]

I found this...seems interesting...then again its treas.gov



http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/taxes/ustax.shtml


The Post Revolutionary Era

The Articles of Confederation, adopted in 1781, reflected the American fear of a strong central government and so retained much of the political power in the States. The national government had few responsibilities and no nationwide tax system, relying on donations from the States for its revenue. Under the Articles, each State was a sovereign entity and could levy tax as it pleased.

When the Constitution was adopted in 1789, the Founding Fathers recognized that no government could function if it relied entirely on other governments for its resources, thus the Federal Government was granted the authority to raise taxes. The Constitution endowed the Congress with the power to "…lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States." Ever on guard against the power of the central government to eclipse that of the states, the collection of the taxes was left as the responsibility of the State governments.

To pay the debts of the Revolutionary War, Congress levied excise taxes on distilled spirits, tobacco and snuff, refined sugar, carriages, property sold at auctions, and various legal documents. Even in the early days of the Republic, however, social purposes influenced what was taxed. For example, Pennsylvania imposed an excise tax on liquor sales partly "to restrain persons in low circumstances from an immoderate use thereof." Additional support for such a targeted tax came from property owners, who hoped thereby to keep their property tax rates low, providing an early example of the political tensions often underlying tax policy decisions.

Though social policies sometimes governed the course of tax policy even in the early days of the Republic, the nature of these policies did not extend either to the collection of taxes so as to equalize incomes and wealth, or for the purpose of redistributing income or wealth. As Thomas Jefferson once wrote regarding the "general Welfare" clause:

To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, "to guarantee to everyone a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."
With the establishment of the new nation, the citizens of the various colonies now had proper democratic representation, yet many Americans still opposed and resisted taxes they deemed unfair or improper. In 1794, a group of farmers in southwestern Pennsylvania physically opposed the tax on whiskey, forcing President Washington to send Federal troops to suppress the Whiskey Rebellion, establishing the important precedent that the Federal government was determined to enforce its revenue laws. The Whiskey Rebellion also confirmed, however, that the resistance to unfair or high taxes that led to the Declaration of Independence did not evaporate with the forming of a new, representative government.

During the confrontation with France in the late 1790's, the Federal Government imposed the first direct taxes on the owners of houses, land, slaves, and estates. These taxes are called direct taxes because they are a recurring tax paid directly by the taxpayer to the government based on the value of the item that is the basis for the tax. The issue of direct taxes as opposed to indirect taxes played a crucial role in the evolution of Federal tax policy in the following years. When Thomas Jefferson was elected President in 1802, direct taxes were abolished and for the next 10 years there were no internal revenue taxes other than excises.

To raise money for the War of 1812, Congress imposed additional excise taxes, raised certain customs duties, and raised money by issuing Treasury notes. In 1817 Congress repealed these taxes, and for the next 44 years the Federal Government collected no internal revenue. Instead, the Government received most of its revenue from high customs duties and through the sale of public land.

 

[satchelmcqueen]

i just hate the whole idea of labels on anything political. im know you must have a word for what you generally think, but i think most people get to hung up on the word/group and not what you as a person have to really say.

tell your professor to fuck off.

 

[lucius]

So in class today, our professor asked as what political ideology do each of us identify with. This is a university so the class was pretty big, but the point is that when it got to around my turn, I stated "libertarian." I was the only libertarian in the whole class, so he found that interesting.

So he questions me. He asks, "Really? That's intriguing. Do you read any particular works?"
"Yes."
"By whom?"
"Well, mostly Friedrich Hayek, Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman, John Locke, and Thomas Jefferson."

That's when he made a weird face and then said, "I'm sorry, but one of those people are not like the rest. Can you guess who?"
I stood there for a minute trying to figure it out, and then decided it was probably Ayn Rand as she was a pretty militant person. But he said, "No, it's Jefferson!"

He said that Thomas Jefferson was not anything close to a modern day libertarian and that he would be a liberal by today's standards. I tried arguing with him but the whole class just started to laugh and then a couple of kids were like, "Yup, typically nutty libertarians."

I don't know. I was pretty pissed off and found it exhilarating to type this up on this forum.

Don't argue with these shills, ie. don't be the one. Read the 1954 US Congressional Reece Committee Hearings, your view of academia may be down-graded even further. Can you believe that you are actually paying for your own indoctrination...masterful!

 

[Michael Landon]

Does your Professor have an e-mail at the school? I'm sure there is a few of us that would be willing to explain the difference between Jefferson and modern day liberals.

- ML

 

[Athan]

Yes, because Jefferson WANTED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO INTERFERE WITH THE ECONOMY.

He also fought with Alexander Hamilton because HE WANTED TO ESTABLISH A CENTRAL BANK TO PAY FOR US DEBT.

Oh shit, wait a second. That is completely fucking wrong. Perhaps your idiot professor bungled the commonly understood fact that Thomas Jefferson believed in "Classical liberalism" and would be considered a "paleo-conservative" when it comes to Constitutional government. Today's liberal is socialist which has nothing to do with Thomas Jefferson.

 

[Liberty Rebellion]

I don't think there was a central bank back then. You must be confusing that with Jackson. Jefferson was a protectionist, but that's all that I can think of that can make him a modern liberal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bank_of_the_United_States

I forgot that he didn't abolish it (was thinking of Jackson), but he was opposed to it.

Here's an article of Madison debating the Constitutionality of a central bank
http://www.jmu.edu/madison/center/main_pages/madison_archives/era/parties/power/bank.htm

 

[danberkeley]

What I don't understand is why you didnt mention Murray Rothbard.

 

[Conza88]

What I don't understand is why you didnt mention Murray Rothbard.

Yeah, or Ludwig Von Mises...

Ah, wtf Milton Friendman! (He's ok for introductory)

Ah well... don't worry OP. There will be a next time, he'll probably try come at you again at some point.

I'm better at arguing in written form, not on the spot. I'm the guy who thinks of the absolute utter "shutdown" to end all arguments, about 10 minutes after the 'moment'.. but I'm getting better.

Just got to think real quick on your feet - and PRACTICE is what its all about. Over time ,you'll get the same socialist rebuttals to all your points, and you'll have the same nice answer to fall back on. It's why Ron Paul is so good. 30 years of it...

What may be helpful is, always question their premises and ask for definitions. "What is his premise?" "What are his definitions". Also get some great quotes; do like a list of ALL the topics that may be covered, and go to http://www.libertarianquotes.com/quotes1.html - Quotable Mise pdf... or scan for others quotes on subjects and compile a 'cheat sheet'.

Best summation would have been;
Thomas Jefferson = Classical Liberal.
Classical Liberal = Libertarian.

And have faith in yourself, he has the PHD in lies, you have it in reality. Be confident, you'll do good.

 

[Zolah]

In the Napoleonic Wars he blocked Britain and France access to American ports. Americans suffered greatly and it jump started the American industries.



Yeah, I favor Jefferson's writings over his presidency.

I may be mistaken, so I apologise in advance, but I believe that would be more to do with wanting to stay neutral in the conflicts of Britain and France specifically, both were vying for America's attention and there were great concessions made to remain neutral.

 

[Mordan]

OP got tricked like Ron Paul used to be tricked. send him back a relevant question or just ignore the bullshit.

like "we might disagree on the definition of liberal then. I read Thomas Jefferson because many of his ideas are interesting and it is a matter of debate which are liberal or not."

he got you in a trick man. they all trick you when arguing.

 

[rational thinker]

Yeah, or Ludwig Von Mises...

Ah, wtf Milton Friendman! (He's ok for introductory)

lol, sorry about that. I was just kind of put on the spot all of a sudden because I didn't expect him to ask for influences. Keep in mind, he only asked me of all people because he found it interesting that I was a libertarian (and I was the only one in the whole class). So yeah, I was thinking... thinking... and then those people came out. I don't think it was that bad but if I could do it again, I would definitely mention Murray Rothbard and Mises.

 

[Athan]

Mention the fact that he is confusing liberal with "Classical liberalism."

Why? Jefferson was adamantly against government interference and was NOT a federalist like Hamilton. Jefferson did not want a strong federal government unlike modern liberals.

 

[RonPaulalways]

Your professor has no business teaching young people about politics.

This is what James Madison, the "father of the Constitution", and a close ideological and political ally of Thomas Jefferson, had to say about federal involvement in schools:

"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress.... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America."

Both Madison and Jefferson were against a central bank, Jefferson even more so than Madison.

Thomas Jefferson was a hardcore libertarian.

Here's what he thought of welfare/social-programs:

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them. "

Here's what he thought of big-government/high-taxes:

"A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government."

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question."

Here's what he thought of the right to bear arms:

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security."

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

The federal government made up only 3% of GDP before 1913. Today it makes up 20% of GDP. The founding fathers were radical libertarians compared to the average person today. That is why America became the strongest economy in the world.

Tell your professor that today, the countries with the smallest governments in the world, as a percentage of GDP, Hong Kong and Singapore, lead the developed world in annual economic growth, and have an average life expectancy almost 4 years greater than the US.

Tell him that big government doesn't work. Taxation destroys people and their opportunities. Countries with lower taxation and restrictions always progress and develop more quickly.

 

[dr. hfn]

kick asss!!! Keep up the good work, you know the truth!

 

[Johnsgoat]

I'm usually fearful of any class or generally anything that opens up with asking one's political ideology. I usually like to figure out the professor then decide how to best apply my ideology in questions, class discussion and papers. Although last semester I broke from this policy as I used going to the Rally for the Republic as reason for missing the first couple of classes.