God Proven to Exist According to Mainstream Physics

[Sola_Fide]

I didn't claim that I was certain of anything, including uncertainty. I can't imagine a possible scenario where that would be incorrect, but for the sake of argument...

If you aren't certain about your uncertainty, why did you assert your certainty about it in the first place? Why not be honest and say that by your world view you can't know anything at all?

 

[Crashland]

If you aren't certain about your uncertainty, why did you assert your certainty about it in the first place? Why not be honest and say that by your world view you can't know anything at all?

I didn't assert certainty about it in the first place. I have an open mind and am more than happy to change my mind if I happen to come across some compelling reason to think that we can in fact be certain about the things we think we know.
Again, what is so problematic with not being able to know things for certain? It really does not bother me like it seems to bother you. I am plenty satisfied to assume my imperfect senses and reasoning capacity are adequate enough, even if I do not know that for certain. There isn't really any other option, so I'm not really understanding what the big problem is.

 

[HVACTech]

I didn't assert certainty about it in the first place. I have an open mind and am more than happy to change my mind if I happen to come across some compelling reason to think that we can in fact be certain about the things we think we know.

my line of work is a mystery to most people, sometimes, it is a mystery to even me.
I am not an electrician, but I can guarantee you voltage (pressure) drop is a big problem. my meters can detect it, but I can't.
if it does not happen while I am there... how am I to know it is happening?
I take care of some supermarkets, it is necessary that I be certain about things that I both do not and cannot know.

how do we deal with this? some "faults" are automatic resets and others are fatal. (someone has to push a button)
and then I read that again..

some compelling reason to think that we can in fact be certain about the things we think we know

 

[Crashland]

my line of work is a mystery to most people, sometimes, it is a mystery to even me.
I am not an electrician, but I can guarantee you voltage (pressure) drop is a big problem. my meters can detect it, but I can't.
if it does not happen while I am there... how am I to know it is happening?
I take care of some supermarkets, it is necessary that I be certain about things that I both do not and cannot know.

how do we deal with this? some "faults" are automatic resets and others are fatal. (someone has to push a button)
and then I read that again..

It's not necessary that you be certain about anything. It is only necessary to have an appropriately high enough confidence level in order to trust for whatever end you are aiming for. At this point we are just playing word games.

 

[Sola_Fide]

It's not necessary that you be certain about anything. It is only necessary to have an appropriately high enough confidence level in order to trust for whatever end you are aiming for. At this point we are just playing word games.

Do you have a high level of confidence that you have a high level of confidence?

 

[Sola_Fide]

I didn't assert certainty about it in the first place. I have an open mind and am more than happy to change my mind if I happen to come across some compelling reason to think that we can in fact be certain about the things we think we know.
Again, what is so problematic with not being able to know things for certain? It really does not bother me like it seems to bother you. I am plenty satisfied to assume my imperfect senses and reasoning capacity are adequate enough, even if I do not know that for certain. There isn't really any other option, so I'm not really understanding what the big problem is.

So you have no understanding of your presuppositions? Don't you understand that you accept "evidence" based on what you already believe to be true?

It's amazing to me that these elementary concepts have to be explained over and over again...

 

[PaulConventionWV]

It’s contradictory that a will received from a rule maker can defy the rule maker.

P.S. Based on a post you made elsewhere, I don’t expect your reply to be “but he gave free-will”.

True, I wouldn't give that answer because I don't believe that anyone can defy the rule maker.

 

[HVACTech]

It's not necessary that you be certain about anything. It is only necessary to have an appropriately high enough confidence level in order to trust for whatever end you are aiming for. At this point we are just playing word games.

you have clearly never seen 15 doors of frozen food go bad. or a family freaking out due to delayed ignition.
it IS necessary that I be familiar with the basic laws of physics.
the OP was playing fast and loose with them. that irritates me.

I will entertain that in matters of "faith" your words ring true.
peace friend.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I didn't assert certainty about it in the first place. I have an open mind and am more than happy to change my mind if I happen to come across some compelling reason to think that we can in fact be certain about the things we think we know.
Again, what is so problematic with not being able to know things for certain? It really does not bother me like it seems to bother you. I am plenty satisfied to assume my imperfect senses and reasoning capacity are adequate enough, even if I do not know that for certain. There isn't really any other option, so I'm not really understanding what the big problem is.

There obviously are SOME certainties in the world. To say there are no certainties is a self-contradictory statement.

If you are an atheist, though, you must take the position that there are no certainties and contradict yourself. Only deists can overcome this problem.

 

[Sola_Fide]

It’s contradictory that a will received from a rule maker can defy the rule maker.

P.S. Based on a post you made elsewhere, I don’t expect your reply to be “but he gave free-will”.

No it is not contradictary. It would only be contradictary if God had only one will. But God has 2 wills.

God has His revealed will: Don't do this.
And God has His decreed will: What I purpose is what will come about (including things against my revealed will).

 

[Crashland]

There obviously are SOME certainties in the world. To say there are no certainties is a self-contradictory statement.

Of course. But I didn't claim that.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Of course. But I didn't claim that.

But do you believe it? Just because you didn't outwardly say it, that doesn't mean it's not self-contradictory.

 

[Crashland]

you have clearly never seen 15 doors of frozen food go bad. or a family freaking out due to delayed ignition.
it IS necessary that I be familiar with the basic laws of physics.
the OP was playing fast and loose with them. that irritates me.

I will entertain that in matters of "faith" your words ring true.
peace friend.

No one is suggesting it is a bad idea to trust the laws of physics.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

No it is not contradictary. It would only be contradictary if God had only one will. But God has 2 wills.

God has His revealed will: Don't do this.
And God has His decreed will: What I purpose is what will come about (including things against my revealed will).

That's actually a good point. God doesn't tell us everything, so sometimes He knows He will be defied, and by knowing, He is not truly being defied because he had ordained it to happen.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

No one is suggesting it is a bad idea to trust the laws of physics.

When you trust the laws of physics, you are borrowing from a deist worldview in which things make sense because they are ordained by the creator. So you are perfectly capable of behaving as if there are certainties while holding a worldview in which nothing can be said to be certain. It's a self-contradictory position to hold, so you instead rely on the opposite position while simultaneously believing in the contradictory one, namely, that there is no God and that nothing can be known for certain.

So while you believe that God does not exist, a position which requires you to reject all absolute truth, you simultaneously behave as if there is absolute truth because it is not practical to reject absolute truth.

 

[Crashland]

But do you believe it? Just because you didn't outwardly say it, that doesn't mean it's not self-contradictory.

Not quite. What I believe is that some things are in fact knowable with certainty. For example, I can know with certainty that I perceive this laptop in front of me. I can not know with certainty that there is actually a laptop in front of me, because I could be a brain in a vat. But I can know with certainty that I perceive there to be one. The fact that you have perceptions and that you have thoughts is knowable. Pretty much any other piece of "knowledge" in the world though, depends on your own perceptions and thoughts being a relatively accurate reflection of reality, which is not knowable with certainty, again, because you could be a brain in a vat. Those are my opinions and I do not claim to know that it is absolutely correct.

 

[HVACTech]

That's actually a good point. God doesn't tell us everything, so sometimes He knows He will be defied, and by knowing, He is not truly being defied because he had ordained it to happen.

OK, thats funny! that is the way that I see it!

every time that I finally figure something out for myself, god laughs, "bout time you figured that out slick"

so, what about that duckbill platypus thingy, did you like that one?

(god has a sense of humor)

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Not quite. What I believe is that some things are in fact knowable with certainty. For example, I can know with certainty that I perceive this laptop in front of me. I can not know with certainty that there is actually a laptop in front of me, because I could be a brain in a vat. But I can know with certainty that I perceive there to be one. The fact that you have perceptions and that you have thoughts is knowable. Pretty much any other piece of "knowledge" in the world though, depends on your own perceptions and thoughts being a relatively accurate reflection of reality, which is not knowable with certainty, again, because you could be a brain in a vat. Those are my opinions and I do not claim to know that it is absolutely correct.

You just said that some things are in fact knowable... then you closed by saying that you "do not claim to know that [your opinion] is absolutely correct." Well, which is it? Are there absolute truths or aren't there? Why shy away from claiming unabashedly that there are absolute truths when you know this to be the case?

 

[Crashland]

When you trust the laws of physics, you are borrowing from a deist worldview in which things make sense because they are ordained by the creator. So you are perfectly capable of behaving as if there are certainties while holding a worldview in which nothing can be said to be certain. It's a self-contradictory position to hold, so you instead rely on the opposite position while simultaneously believing in the contradictory one, namely, that there is no God and that nothing can be known for certain.

So while you believe that God does not exist, a position which requires you to reject all absolute truth, you simultaneously behave as if there is absolute truth because it is not practical to reject absolute truth.

I am borrowing from a deist worldview in which things make sense because they are ordained by the creator. Being ordained by a sentient creator God is only one possible explanation for why things appear to make sense to us.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I am borrowing from a deist worldview in which things make sense because they are ordained by the creator. Being ordained by a sentient creator God is only one possible explanation for why things appear to make sense to us.

It's really quite simple. There are only two options: Either the universe was created or it came into existence by itself. There are no other options. If you can name one, by all means do.

If you admit that you are borrowing from another worldview because yours doesn't make sense, then you are validating the opposite view by default. There really are only two.