God and Iron Chariots

[YumYum]

The Israelites were told never to fear a larger, more powerful enemy, because God would give them the victory. It says at Deuteronomy 20: 1-4:

1 When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you. 2 When you are about to go into battle, the priest shall come forward and address the army. 3 He shall say: "Hear, O Israel, today you are going into battle against your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be terrified or give way to panic before them. 4 For the LORD your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory."

When the "Sons of Joseph" were told by Joshua (at Joshua 17:16) to take the mountainous region, they complained:

16 But the children of Joseph said, "The mountain country is not enough for us; and all the Canaanites who dwell in the land of the valley have chariots of iron, both those who are of Beth Shean and its towns and those who are of the Valley of Jezreel."

So, they wanted the lower region, but felt they couldn't prevail, because their enemies, the Canaanites, had war chariots that had iron scythes. But, they shouldn't have had a defeatist attitude, since God did give them the victory in taking the mountainous region. God would give them the victory in taking the lower region as well, but there was a major problem. God could not defeat an enemy with iron chariots. Notice what it says at Judges 1:19, regarding this dilemma:

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

So, God drove the enemies of Israel out of the mountainous region, but could not win against "chariots of iron". Any thoughts on this?

 

[YumYum]

bump...

My thoughts on these scriptures is that ancient civilizations always attributed there successes and failures to their God(s), and the Hebrews were no different. In the Old Testament, God cannot defeat the enemy because of their superior weaponry; namely, iron chariots, and yet God had previously promised and guaranteed the Hebrews that he will defeat any of their enemies, no matter he big and mighty they may be. Apologists cannot claim that God refused to help them because the Hebrews must have sinned; He had just helped them defeat the enemy in the mountainous region.

No, it was clearly because of the iron chariots that God could not win the battle. This demonstrates that humans were behind many of the myths that are in the Old Testament, and that the Hebrews used their God to control their people in the same way that the Babylonians and Egyptians did. That is why Jesus told the Jews of His day "You don't even know my father!". Sad to say, it appears that the Old Testament does not give an accurate description of who God really is.

 

[acptulsa]

Actually, I'm pretty sure most people would tell you it was Judah who could not do it. And since chariots of iron won't save you from forty days and nights of rain, I'd tend to agree. That said, I agree with you about the OT.

As for Judah, if he couldn't find a way to use the high ground against those charioteers, either it was a very wide valley or he was an incompetent general.

 

[Southron]

Actually, I'm pretty sure most people would tell you it was Judah who could not do it. And since chariots of iron won't save you from forty days and nights of rain, I'd tend to agree. That said, I agree with you about the OT.

As for Judah, if he couldn't find a way to use the high ground against those charioteers, either it was a very wide valley or he was an incompetent general.

Yes. Judah failed.

 

[Southron]

bump...

My thoughts on these scriptures is that ancient civilizations always attributed there successes and failures to their God(s), and the Hebrews were no different. In the Old Testament, God cannot defeat the enemy because of their superior weaponry; namely, iron chariots, and yet God had previously promised and guaranteed the Hebrews that he will defeat any of their enemies, no matter he big and mighty they may be. Apologists cannot claim that God refused to help them because the Hebrews must have sinned; He had just helped them defeat the enemy in the mountainous region.

No, it was clearly because of the iron chariots that God could not win the battle. This demonstrates that humans were behind many of the myths that are in the Old Testament, and that the Hebrews used their God to control their people in the same way that the Babylonians and Egyptians did. That is why Jesus told the Jews of His day "You don't even know my father!". Sad to say, it appears that the Old Testament does not give an accurate description of who God really is.

It doesn't prove anything aside from the fact it was not God's will for them to win that particular battle. The Canaanites were soundly defeated.

As if the God who created the universe could be stopped by mere iron chariots...

 

[YumYum]

It doesn't prove anything aside from the fact it was not God's will for them to win that particular battle. The Canaanites were soundly defeated.

As if the God who created the universe could be stopped by mere iron chariots...

Did you read the account? It plainly states that God could not defeat their enemies in the low plain because they had iron chariots.

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

In view of what it says at Deuteronomy 20: 1-4, it makes it clear that an all powerful God should be able to defeat iron chariots, but the scripture at Judges 1:19 says that it was God Himself who could not defeat the iron chariots, because "the LORD was with Judah"; Judah should have defeated them, since he had the Lord's backing.

Also, according to Joshua 18:3, God gave them the lower plain, so Joshua asked the Israelites: "How long will you wait before you begin to take possession of the land that the Lord, the God of your fathers, has given you?"

 

[CaptainSkyhawk]

Did you read the account? It plainly states that God could not defeat their enemies in the low plain because they had iron chariots.

After the semicolon, it seems to me that "he" is not referring to God, but rather Judah. JUDAH couldn't drive the inhabitants out of the valley, not God. If you're reading from the KJV (which is what you quoted,) Young's Literal Translation (which is so literal it ignores English sentence structure,) or the Douay-Rheims Bible, it's easy to make that mistake.

However, most translations make it clear that the pronoun he (or they, referring to Judah's followers, in the NKJV and NASB) is in reference to Judah, not God.

That being said, it's beyond me as to why God didn't lend Judah a hand with the forces in the valley.