GM To Cut 14,700 Jobs And Close Plants In North America

[angelatc]

I know why you don't know this... it's because you don't work in IT.

To offer just my favorite example:

Mankind has been charging interest on loans for thousands of years.

Mankind has been calculating interest on loans with computers since the 1950s.

P=RI. We all learned it in high school. It's a simple arithmetic problem.
It isn't even in the same galaxy cluster as the problem of having a car drive itself.

It is something we've been doing with computers for almost 80 years, and IT STILL GETS FUCKED UP MILLIONS OF TIMES EVERY SINGLE DAY.

My youngest kid is going to be learning to drive about the same time a critical mass of these predetermined killing machines are on the road.

You and I both know the auto corporations are going to be made legally impervious to lawsuits. Well, if your self-driving car kills my boy, that means I have nobody to come after but YOU, and buddy, I am NOT backing down. Because I can see it coming, whether you choose to or not.

But in all fairness, human drivers are far from perfect. I am reminded of that in spades every time it snows just a little.

 

[oyarde]

If you think about it , the avg amount of vehicles being sold ea yr is good for such a stagnant economy and the high avg price of the product . US GDP , not adjusted for any inflation from the years 2000 to 2017 hit 5 or 6 percent just five times ( 2000 and 2003 - 2006 ) . Since 1988 growth has only hit 6 1/2 percent once ( 1999 ) . Basically it appears our economy is driven by people buying things they should not . Only 6 in 10 Americans work , half of those pay no Fed tax . Three people in 10 carry it while they spend a trillion more ea yr than they take in . Avg new pickup price being sold in the US is 48K , or twice what it was a decade ago , everybody earning twice as many FRN's ? No.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Just at the end of the press conference, the president himself weighed in on Twitter to discuss the GM layoffs, and suggested that the company may see its subsidies for electric car production revoked. White House officials had indicated during the press conference that punishments may come for the auto maker over its thousands of layoffs.
"Very disappointed with General Motors and their CEO, Mary Barra, for closing plants in Ohio, Michigan and Maryland. Nothing being closed in Mexico & China. The U.S. saved General Motors, and this is the THANKS we get! We are now looking at cutting all @GM subsidies, including for electric cars. General Motors made a big China bet years ago when they built plants there (and in Mexico) - don’t think that bet is going to pay off. I am here to protect America’s Workers!" Mr Trump tweeted.

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/white-house-press-conference-live-184600859.html

 

[EBounding]

We need more tariffs.

 

[Zippyjuan]

Just at the end of the press conference, the president himself weighed in on Twitter to discuss the GM layoffs, and suggested that the company may see its subsidies for electric car production revoked. White House officials had indicated during the press conference that punishments may come for the auto maker over its thousands of layoffs.
"Very disappointed with General Motors and their CEO, Mary Barra, for closing plants in Ohio, Michigan and Maryland. Nothing being closed in Mexico & China. The U.S. saved General Motors, and this is the THANKS we get! We are now looking at cutting all @GM subsidies, including for electric cars. General Motors made a big China bet years ago when they built plants there (and in Mexico) - don’t think that bet is going to pay off. I am here to protect America’s Workers!" Mr Trump tweeted.

More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/white-house-press-conference-live-184600859.html

The electric car subsidy (available to all makers- not just GM) drops anyways when a company sells their 200,000th unit. Tesla has already hit that and GM is expected to do so before the end of the year so it won't make much difference.

 

[Swordsmyth]

The electric car subsidy drops anyways when a company sells their 200,000th unit. Tesla has already hit that and GM is expected to do so before the end of the year so it won't make much difference.

He said ALL of their subsidies.

 

[Swordsmyth]

We need more tariffs.

Tariffs have nothing to do with this except perhaps if GM is doing this to try to help China's campaign to get us to go back to surrendering in the trade war they are waging against us.

 

[Zippyjuan]

It is good when the government tells private industries how they should conduct their businesses.

 

[Swordsmyth]

It is good when the government tells private industries how they should conduct their businesses.

LOL

It is good when government ends subsidies.

 

[brushfire]

LOL

It is good when government ends subsidies.

What is a tariff? Is that not subsidizing? The recession is here - HoHoHo... Retailers going bankrupt during the Christmas shopping season was a pretty strong indicator to me. IMO fk GM - let em die.

 

[Swordsmyth]

What is a tariff?

The best form of Constitutional taxation, it can also be used to compensate for foreign subsidies and tariffs designed to destroy our economy and subject us to world government.

Is that not subsidizing?

No, it is taxation or compensating for foreign trade attacks.

 

[Zippyjuan]

The best form of Constitutional taxation, it can also be used to compensate for foreign subsidies and tariffs designed to destroy our economy and subject us to world government.


No, it is taxation or compensating for foreign trade attacks.

Tariffs are subsidies for protected industries. Same as tax breaks are.

Are tariffs the best form of taxation? No- they are a more hidden form of taxation. Taxes should be visible and felt.

If you don't like taxes and want smaller government, that is the worst way to go about it. Why? People don't even realize the taxes they are paying because they are hidden in the higher prices they pay for goods and the lower wages they receive. Out of sight, out of mind. They don't worry about them. Now if you have taxes they can see- like income taxes where they have to regularly come up with the money they have to pay- that they are more likely to complain about. (will they do something about is another question). Now for this to work best towards reducing spending, you need a strong link between spending and taxes. But politicians have figured out a way around that- borrowing. Somebody else will get to pay for it- you won't and you will get the benefit. Sounds great, right?

So what about if they had to pay right now for what they spend right now? If they increase spending, they are required to notify the taxpayers how much more they are going to have to come up to pay for this or that new program. Direct cause and effect linkage. Now people may not want to add that new program or be against expanding that existing one. If you want that ten percent increase in Social Security payments this year, you are going to have to come up with another $500 say in taxes at the end of the year. Do you want to pay those higher taxes? Maybe you do, maybe you don't.

Tariffs completely removes any link between spending and what the residents of the country pay for that spending. There is zero incentive to care how much is spent since they have no clue that this is why their lettuce now costs $2 a head instead of $1 last year.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Tariffs are subsidies for protected industries.

Are tariffs the best form of taxation? No- they are a more hidden form of taxation. Taxes should be visible and felt.

If you don't like taxes and want smaller government, that is the worst way to go about it. Why? People don't even realize the taxes they are paying because they are hidden in the higher prices they pay for goods and the lower wages they receive. Out of sight, out of mind. They don't worry about them. Now if you have taxes they can see- like income taxes where they have to regularly come up with the money they have to pay- that they are more likely to complain about. (will they do something about is another question). Now for this to work best towards reducing spending, you need a strong link between spending and taxes. But politicians have figured out a way around that- borrowing. Somebody else will get to pay for it- you won't and you will get the benefit. Sounds great, right?

So what about if they had to pay right now for what they spend right now? If they increase spending, they are required to notify the taxpayers how much more they are going to have to come up to pay for this or that new program. Direct cause and effect linkage. Now people may not want to add that new program or be against expanding that existing one. If you want that ten percent increase in Social Security payments this year, you are going to have to come up with another $500 say in taxes at the end of the year. Do you want to pay those higher taxes? Maybe you do, maybe you don't.

Tariffs completely removes any link between spending and what the residents of the country pay for that spending. There is zero incentive to care how much is spent since they have no clue that this is why their lettuce now costs $2 a head instead of $1 last year.

You assume an ideal world where foreign countries don't make trade war on us, you pretend that there is no domestic production, you pretend that people are aware of what they pay in income tax, you pretend that people aren't aware of tariffs when history shows that they are.................................

Somehow spending was limited and people seceded over taxation when we had tariffs, on top of that people can avoid tariffs and are encouraged to produce instead of being discouraged from doing so.

 

[Zippyjuan]

You assume an ideal world where foreign countries don't make trade war on us, you pretend that there is no domestic production, you pretend that people are aware of what they pay in income tax, you pretend that people aren't aware of tariffs when history shows that they are.................................

Somehow spending was limited and people seceded over taxation when we had tariffs, on top of that people can avoid tariffs and are encouraged to produce instead of being discouraged from doing so.

How much of the price of a new car is added due to tariffs? How much on that can of soda? Can you say how much tariffs effect the price of any specific item? Yet you do know how much the sales tax is going to cost you. Same net effect. The tariff amount is hidden- the tax isn't.

If you want to avoid an item with tariffs, how do you know which items have tariffs and which do not? You can't make a free choice to avoid them if you have no idea where they are.

 

[Swordsmyth]

How much of the price of a new car is added due to tariffs? How much on that can of soda? Can you say how much tariffs effect the price of any specific item? Yet you do know how much the sales tax is going to cost you. Same net effect. The tariff amount is hidden- the tax isn't.

The only reason people are less aware of the costs of tariffs is that the US has had hardly any for longer than anyone can remember and production has been globalized, yet people are still aware of the costs of tariffs because the affected companies make sure people hear about the effects, they even exaggerate them.

 

[Zippyjuan]

The only reason people are less aware of the costs of tariffs is that the US has had hardly any for longer than anyone can remember and production has been globalized, yet people are still aware of the costs of tariffs because the affected companies make sure people hear about the effects, they even exaggerate them.

All countries have been lowering tariffs since the end of WWII. And China's are not as high as some people think.

 

[Swordsmyth]

All countries have been lowering tariffs since the end of WWII. And China's are not as high as some people think.

There are other ways of restricting trade and subsidizing exports and average tariff numbers ignore which products are targeted to manipulate the trade balance.

Low spending and taxes of any kind is best but tariffs are one of the best forms of taxation and the income tax is one of the worst.

 

[Zippyjuan]

There are other ways of restricting trade and subsidizing exports and average tariff numbers ignore which products are targeted to manipulate the trade balance.

Low spending and taxes of any kind is best but tariffs are one of the best forms of taxation and the income tax is one of the worst.

Why are tariffs the best form of taxation? Is that just some cliche you heard someplace? Because people have no idea they are paying the taxes? Is it the illusion that foreign companies are paying them and not us? "No- we aren't taxing you! China is going to pay for the tariffs." Trump claimed. (We are the ones actually paying them- with higher prices, lower wages, and fewer jobs).

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...hina-trump-american-consumers-0924-story.html

At an event earlier that day, Trump talked about the trade negotiations with Mexico and Canada, then said, “China is now paying us billions of dollars in tariffs, and hopefully we’ll be able to work something out.” That’s exactly backward. The tariffs Trump imposed on Chinese goods are paid by the businesses and consumers in this country that buy them.

In other words, the tariffs are a tax on our people, not theirs. The pain ultimately is borne by U.S. consumers, as businesses pass along the tariffs they pay on the Chinese components and metals they buy. Alternatively, when businesses shift to higher-priced U.S.-made components and metals to avoid the tariffs, their costs go up, and their prices follow.

If hiding taxes is the goal, yes, they are the best.

 

[TheCount]

ImI sure that there's a statist solution for this. [MENTION=65299]Swordsmyth[/MENTION] ?

 

[Swordsmyth]

Why are tariffs the best form of taxation? Because people have no idea they are paying the taxes? Is it the illusion that foreign companies are paying them and not us? "No- we aren't taxing you! China is going to pay for the tariffs." Trump claimed. (We are the ones actually paying them- with higher prices, lower wages, and fewer jobs).

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...hina-trump-american-consumers-0924-story.html

Tariffs are one of the best forms of taxation because they penalize consumption instead of production and because the consumer can avoid them by either buying American or saving the money, they are better than a sales tax because they have beneficial side effects that protect strategic industries so that the UScan't be subjected to world government.

Who is paying the tariff again?

President Donald Trump is succeeding in making China pay most of the cost of his trade war.That’s the conclusion of a new paper from EconPol Europe, a network of researchers in the European Union. U.S. companies and consumers will only pay 4.5 percent more after the nation imposed 25 percent tariffs on $250 billion of Chinese goods, and the other 20.5 percent toll will fall on Chinese producers, according to authors Benedikt Zoller-Rydzek and Gabriel Felbermayr.

According to Zoller-Rydzek and Felbermayr, the tariffs will do what Trump has longed for: They will cut American imports of affected Chinese goods by more than a third, and lower the bilateral trade deficit by 17 percent.
The Trump administration selected products with the highest “price elasticity,” or high availability of substitutes, according to Zoller-Rydzek and Felbermayr. The Chinese products hit by Trump’s tariffs can mostly be replaced by other goods, forcing exporters to cut selling prices to keep buyers.
“Through its strategic choice of Chinese products, the U.S. government was not only able to minimize the negative effects on U.S. consumers and firms, but also to create substantial net welfare gains in the U.S.,” the researchers wrote.
The U.S. is due to raise duties on the largest $200 billion tranche of goods to 25 percent from 10 percent on Jan. 1. In retaliation, China has slapped tariffs on $110 billion in imports from the U.S. and effectively shut off its purchase of key American agricultural exports including soybeans.
With the economic costs shifted to China, the U.S. levies will lead to a $18.4 billion net gain for the American government, the researchers wrote.

More at: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china...134813450.html

The Chinese lower their prices/increase subsidies to their exporters to try and keep the market share and the rising dollar also helps.