Germany to permanently close all its nuclear power plants

doodle

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While US is struggling to find a durable solution for the sticky problem of its "packed spent-fuel storage sites", Germany is taking a drastic step to completely stop all its nuclear power plants:

30 May 2011
Germany: Nuclear power plants to close by 2022

Germany's coalition government has announced a reversal of policy that will see all the country's nuclear power plants phased out by 2022.

The decision makes Germany the biggest industrial power to announce plans to give up nuclear energy.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13592208


Could this affect rest of Europe/US nuclear power plant policy?

Last week EU had announced major stress tests for 143 nuclear reactors in Europe. Not clear if Germany's decision had anything to do with this announcement:

MAY 25, 2011, 10:37 A.M. ET

EU Sets Nuclear Stress-Test Criteria
BY ALESSANDRO TORELLO

BRUSSELS—The European Union has agreed to test its nuclear plants for natural disasters such as earthquakes and tsunamis, as well as for man-made catastrophes, while leaving the sensitive issue of terrorist attack-prevention for later, the European Commission said Wednesday.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304520804576344703363712480.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
 
Remember when Socialists put forth arguments to improve the state of man? Yeah...I don't (it's been 60 years). Fuck you John K. Galbraith. Well, more rods for us! Now all we need to do is legalize Nuclear power here in the States. Hey AF any work being done on energy freedom in NH?
 
Ummm....what are they replacing them with?

Not sure, but they have some modernization of traditional technologies in the works.

Waldeck 1 pumped-storage hydro plant in Germany begins operation

HEIDENHEIM, Germany 6/1/10 (PennWell) --

The Waldeck 1 pumped-storage hydropower plant in Germany has officially been inaugurated, Voith Hydro Inc. reported. Voith Hydro, together with the consortium partner for civil construction, Bilfinger Berger, developed the overall technical concept for the hydro plant.

http://www.hydroworld.com/index/dis...gehydro/2010/06/waldeck-1_pumped-storage.html
 
It is sad really to see people whom I thought were freedom loving push a technology that requires perpetual tax servitude now and for generations to come.

One can only hope I am good company with other Libertarians or anarchists that will not allow us to be perpetually enslaved and polluted by your nuclear institution.
 
It is sad really to see people whom I thought were freedom loving push a technology that requires perpetual tax servitude now and for generations to come.

One can only hope I am good company with other Libertarians or anarchists that will not allow us to be perpetually enslaved and polluted by your nuclear institution.

Perpetual tax servitude? How exactly does nuclear energy require this? Do you think that if governments did not monopolize the right to build and maintain a nuclear power plant (not just in our own country, but practically worldwide), that private companies would not build nuclear plants without taxpayer support?
 
It is sad really to see people whom I thought were freedom loving push a technology that requires perpetual tax servitude now and for generations to come.

Tax servitutde is no good to artificially support them if that is what is going on.
 
Remember when Socialists put forth arguments to improve the state of man? Yeah...I don't (it's been 60 years). Fuck you John K. Galbraith. Well, more rods for us! Now all we need to do is legalize Nuclear power here in the States. Hey AF any work being done on energy freedom in NH?

Does energy freedom come with the right to spew radiation across a wide area?
 
Perpetual tax servitude? How exactly does nuclear energy require this? Do you think that if governments did not monopolize the right to build and maintain a nuclear power plant (not just in our own country, but practically worldwide), that private companies would not build nuclear plants without taxpayer support?

1. They cannot be built and waste maintained infinitely without taxpayer dollars. You are therefore enslaving future generations to government.

I suspect your answer would be that if we did not have government regulations it could be funded privately. The regulations are there to prevent accidents for a technology that completely unforgiving for any kind of accident and despite regulations are still uninsurable.

Ancaps would say the plants would still be built with safety in mind to protect their investment. Thus it makes no difference if regulations were eliminated since the plants would still invest to implement the safety protocols and thus still cannot be built without taxpayer dollars. If the facility does not invest in safety then we all ultimately have to pay the price so again we are back to taxpayers footing the bill since they are still uninsurable.

2. If the nuclear company goes bankrupt for whatever reason the taxpayers must maintain the waste and facility infinitely. You are therefore again enslaving future generations to government to maintain failed facilities and their waste.

3. If a new cheaper clean technology surpasses nuclear power at some point in the future you will have nuclear plants declaring bankruptcy since they will be unable to compete. You are therefore again enslaving future generations to government to maintain the obsolete technology and it's waste.
 
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1. They cannot be built and waste maintained infinitely without taxpayer dollars. You are therefore enslaving future generations to government.

Sure they can. Just as space shuttles or aircraft carriers can be built without taxpayer dollars. The non-existence of these things today does not mean that they are not possible. Privately funded and maintained nuclear plants have not come into existence because they have not been allowed to. You seem to concede this below, though, so let's talk about how practical they would be....

I suspect your answer would be that if we did not have government regulations it could be funded privately. The regulations are there to prevent accidents for a technology that completely unforgiving for any kind of accident and despite regulations are still uninsurable.

Ah yes, the regulations are there to prevent accidents. The regulators do such a good job in every other industry. The coastal land on the Gulf of Mexico is similarly "uninsurable" against something such as the BP oil spill. There were regulators. The regulators failed. The left's solution was that we shouldn't have any offshore drilling at all. Sounds like you're making a similar argument here. You might agree with the statement that there should be no offshore drilling....I have no idea. But you'd need to, in order to be consistent.

Ancaps would say the plants would still be built with safety in mind to protect their investment. Thus it makes no difference if regulations were eliminated since the plants would still invest to implement the safety protocols and thus still cannot be built without taxpayer dollars. If the facility does not invest in safety then we all ultimately have to pay the price so again we are back to taxpayers footing the bill since they are still uninsurable.

I am not an ancap. If an accident were to happen, it would be the responsibility of government to prosecute the case. You're once again assuming that regulation is a panacea for a potential accident. Again, this is not the case. There were 130 financial regulatory agencies in 2008, and the financial system almost collapsed anyway. Most of the regulators in any industry are former industry executives or managers who have good relationships with the people they are regulating - and, therefore, they aren't going to take a "hard line" stance on the regulations that exist.

2. If the nuclear company goes bankrupt for whatever reason the taxpayers must maintain the waste and facility infinitely. You are therefore again enslaving future generations to government to maintain failed facilities and their waste.

If the nuclear company goes bankrupt in a competitive market, there are going to be other companies and potential investors around who will buy up the bankrupt company's assets during bankruptcy proceedings. Whoever buys the company would be responsible for the waste.

3. If a new cheaper clean technology surpasses nuclear power at some point in the future you will have nuclear plants declaring bankruptcy since they will be unable to compete. You are therefore again enslaving future generations to government to maintain the obsolete technology and it's waste.

I don't really understand why the government would be tasked to assume responsibility for the nuclear waste in such a situation. Even still, how much does it cost to maintain a nuclear waste site, especially in this case, when it is known that there will never be any more nuclear waste added? I'd be willing to bet it's negligible in comparison to the amount spent on almost anything else the government might be doing at the time.
 
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Sure they can. Just as space shuttles or aircraft carriers can be built without taxpayer dollars. The non-existence of these things today does not mean that they are not possible. Privately funded and maintained nuclear plants have not come into existence because they have not been allowed to. You seem to concede this below, though, so let's talk about how practical they would be....

I just want to comment on one of the many points you made.. and I make this point without being thoroughly educated on this issue. But based on what little I know, the difference in risks associated with private enterprise building a space shuttle vs a nuclear reactor is huge. That impresses on me a cause for concern and need for detailed study.

video link
 
I just want to comment on one of the many points you made.. and I make this point without being thoroughly educated on this issue. But based on what little I know, the difference in risks associated with private enterprise building a space shuttle vs a nuclear reactor is huge. That impresses on me a cause for concern and need for detailed study.

video link

If you believe that there are things that could be taken care of by private industry but are "too important" or "too dangerous" to be left in the hands of private enterprise, you have lost the argument for capitalism. You have implied that the government can do it more safely and more effectively. So why not let them do everything else, too?
 
If you believe that there are things that could be taken care of by private industry but are "too important" or "too dangerous" to be left in the hands of private enterprise, you have lost the argument for capitalism. You have implied that the government can do it more safely and more effectively. So why not let them do everything else, too?

Actually I didn't mean to say gov could do it better than private enterprise, primary concern is with the risks associated with the current nuclear plants deployed close to population centers regardless of who does it.

It's like I won't trust private contractors to invade Iraq anymore than I would a government department doing it.
 
Actually I didn't mean to say gov could do it better than private enterprise, primary concern is with the risks associated with the current nuclear plants deployed close to population centers regardless of who does it.

It's like I won't trust private contractors to invade Iraq anymore than I would a government department doing it.

That's fair enough. I think it would be rather un-libertarian to ban a specific type of power plant, though. Of course, none of us really know what a free market for energy would look like - it's quite possible that the supply for nuclear power might not exist anyway, due to the added cost of transporting, disposing of, or maintaining the resulting waste, which doesn't exist in other energy sectors.
 
...Just as space shuttles or aircraft carriers can be built without taxpayer dollars.....

Loan guarantees.

Ah yes, the regulations are there to prevent accidents. The regulators do such a good job in every other industry. The coastal land on the Gulf of Mexico is similarly "uninsurable" against something such as the BP oil spill. There were regulators. The regulators failed. The left's solution was that we shouldn't have any offshore drilling at all. Sounds like you're making a similar argument here. You might agree with the statement that there should be no offshore drilling....I have no idea. But you'd need to, in order to be consistent.



I am not an ancap. If an accident were to happen, it would be the responsibility of government to prosecute the case. You're once again assuming that regulation is a panacea for a potential accident Again, this is not the case. There were 130 financial regulatory agencies in 2008, and the financial system almost collapsed anyway. Most of the regulators in any industry are former industry executives or managers who have good relationships with the people they are regulating - and, therefore, they aren't going to take a "hard line" stance on the regulations that exist.

I specifically framed it as regulation vs non-regulation is not the issue therefore removing it from the debate. I know people in this forum will twist anything you say and make it like you are for regulation or are some sort Socialist. So I went out of my way in my first post to point out that the typically anarchist response here is that even without regulation the same safety protocols would be implemented since the operators would want to protect thier investment. (I posted that as the anarchist response, it is not belief since clearly this industry has failed where regulations do and do not exist).

Comparing a nuclear accident to the BP oil spill is just silly. So therefore based on your response I have to ask what your connection is to this industry that you are willing to sacrifice the fruits of your labor, health and that of your family for generations to come? Self or family employed by them? Are you getting your daily dose of propaganda from a college professor and is this the career you are seeking?

If the nuclear company goes bankrupt in a competitive market, there are going to be other companies and potential investors around who will buy up the bankrupt company's assets during bankruptcy proceedings. Whoever buys the company would be responsible for the waste.

Not if there are less costly alternatives in the future. More to that last point below.

I don't really understand why the government would be tasked to assume responsibility for the nuclear waste in such a situation. Even still, how much does it cost to maintain a nuclear waste site, especially in this case, when it is known that there will never be any more nuclear waste added? I'd be willing to bet it's negligible in comparison to the amount spent on almost anything else the government might be doing at the time.

It is bad investment taking into account containment deterioration, waste management, maintaining the facility, closing the facility and security. For example a typically nuclear power plant closing and clean up could take up 15-20 years costing millions of dollars. If the company is not around and no one is willing to step up to the plate the taxpayers will be forced to do so. There is no way around this since there are much cheaper things an energy company can invest in.
 
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Loan guarantees.

Want to expand this? Are you saying that the government would necessarily have to guarantee a private nuclear energy company a loan in order for it to survive? If so, then by all means, let the nuclear power industry die. Just let it die on its own merits, and not on the basis of the beliefs held by you or by the wise politicians in DC.

I specifically framed it as regulation vs non-regulation is not the issue therefore removing it from the debate. I know people in this forum will twist anything you say and make it like you are for regulation or are some sort Socialist. So I went out of my way in my first post to point out that the typically anarchist response here is that even without regulation the same safety protocols would be implemented since the operators would want to protect thier investment. (I posted that as the anarchist response, it is not belief since clearly this industry has failed where regulations do and do not exist).

Yes, you mentioned the "ancap" response (which is not an "ancap" response, because it does not rely on anarchy). Then you said: "If the facility does not invest in safety then we all ultimately have to pay the price so again we are back to taxpayers footing the bill since they are still uninsurable."

If your answer to this is not government regulation, then I don't know what on earth you were referring to.

Comparing a nuclear accident to the BP oil spill is just silly. So therefore based on your response I have to ask what your connection is to this industry that you are willing to sacrifice the fruits of your labor, health and that of your family for generations to come? Self or family employed by them? Are you getting your daily dose of propaganda from a college professor and is this the career you are seeking?

I'm a graduate student in economics who believes that free markets should be able to sort this out just like it sorts out all kinds of issues. For full disclosure, I worked in a nuclear-related position for a year. I quit and went back to school, because the red tape was unbearable. 90% of the taxpayer dollars that are being squandered in the industry are government contract and compliance related.

It is bad investment taking into account containment deterioration, waste management, maintaining the facility, closing the facility and security. For example a typically nuclear power plant closing and clean up could take up 15-20 years costing millions of dollars. If the company is not around and no one is willing to step up to the plate the taxpayers will be forced to do so. There is no way around this since there are much cheaper things an energy company can invest in.

It's a bad investment as far as you are concerned. Fine. There were people who doubted the viabilities of automobiles and personal computers when they were first introduced into the market. Not everyone is going to have the same view on what a "good" investment is as you do. If they did, we would just be robots, and there would be no need for a market at all - we'd just magically arrive at the proper solution.

I don't claim to know if nuclear energy would work in a free market, and quite frankly I don't care. I do know that we can't say "Nuclear power should be banned" or "Nuclear power should be heavily regulated" without conceding that pretty much any other market can be subject to the government's whims in the same fashion. So let the market decide.
 
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I wish I could remember where I saw a recent study that confirmed that cell phone usage has resulted in an increase of brain disorders.

Yet, by allowing the free market to work and not regulate the radiation, the technology has gotten better and safer. Hmmm, I wonder why? Government? No, they regulated minimum standards that were already circulating the market. The free enterprise system allowed this to happen and improve over time.
 
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