Gary Johnson Just Detonated His Own Candidacy

Setting up a "universal basic income system" (I'm assuming that is what UBI means) sets up a whole different set of expectations than "phasing out welfare" does, even when the stated purpose of the former is the latter.

Yes. This is like giving methadone to a heroin addict. Something that can reduce the pain and unpleasantness of the withdrawal symptoms. Obviously, if you weren't addicted in the first place, no one would suggest taking methadone. But that's not where we are. However, as Hazlitt finally (after about 30 years) pointed out, the methadone has its own problems.

Like I said, I don't support the idea, but I am informed about it and understand why many libertarian economists do. In A Conflict of Visions, Sowell wrote about the "constrained" and "unconstrained" visions. The constrained vision sees the world as it is, whereas the unconstrained vision sees the world as the way they want it to be. When using the unconstrained vision and a libertarian mindset, this idea looks bad. But when using the constrained vision and a libertarian mindset, this idea seems like a reasonable trade-off which could actually create societal benefits and would wean dependency. Most successful economists employ the constrained vision since it relies on empirical evidence.
 
So Friedman, Hayek, Sowell... They lack the fundamentals, too?

Henry Hazlitt, too.

Sorry folks. If we're going to start ousting people based on this, we're really going to lose most of our top economists.

It would appear they'd not thought this through very well and for the reasons I posted a few places above.

It is WAY too easy to discount the power that words bring to the human table in such issues as this. If they advocated for such a thing, they did so erroneously... unless, of course all their speak of property rights was all in light-hearted jest... you know, along the lines of Edison's quip to Tesla that Nikki just didn't understand American humor.

You set up another, "better" welfare system, call it something else, and tell people it is a temporary bridge to ultimate elimination, and it will be another ten thousand years before you can manufacture enough explosive to have even the least hope of dislodging it pursuant to promise.

Half measures avail us nothing and these word-games are endlessly more dangerous than most people will give credit.
 
The pure libertarian message can only go so far, or that is what those seeking mass appeal seem to think. Until our unadulterated ideology becomes more widely accepted, I think some here may need to get used to it or quit following politics altogether or you'd be too disappointed too much of the time.

I am never disappointed in the outcomes of electoral politics. That's because I never expect anything from them.

To invoke a crusty cliché, having such expectations is like putting the cart before the horse.

Election outcomes are lagging indicators (carts), not leading ones (horses). They are effects, not causes.

If your ambition is to challenge and eventually change the status quo, and insofar as voting is to have any significant role in that endeavor, then you don't change attitudes by getting votes - you get votes from changing* attitudes. Any stratagem that centers on catering to (or not offending) prevailing sensibilities in order to garner more votes is only going to lead to further assimilation with (not reformation of) the status quo. As I said earlier, you will always get more of what you subsidize. Note that the progressives, for example, did not achieve their many successes over the last century and more by means of ingratiatingly placative conciliation.



* I mean the word "changing" here in an adjective rather than transitive sense (though the transitive sense can be applied as well, of course).
 
Yes. This is like giving methadone to a heroin addict. Something that can reduce the pain and unpleasantness of the withdrawal symptoms. Obviously, if you weren't addicted in the first place, no one would suggest taking methadone. But that's not where we are. However, as Hazlitt finally (after about 30 years) pointed out, the methadone has its own problems.

It took him 30 years to figure this out?

If I am walking by a pier in a raging storm and I observe a man whom I know jump into the waters, I have choices to make. I can jump in after him at great peril to myself or I can leave him to drown. Ignoring the hows but assuming that I know this man jumped in for reasons that no rational man would find valid, but only stupid, I will choose to leave him to his devices.

People addicted to drugs, whether heroin or welfare, merit no help. They chose their lots and as far as I am concerned they may reap what they sow. I have no desire for conflict, but my desire to be pillaged is even smaller. I make no war on my fellows, but if he comes to my door with war, I will return it in kind. If we yank the welfare rug from beneath the feet of the parasites and they riot, I see no moral issue with putting them down by whatever means become necessary, even if that means killing them to the man.

Enough is enough already. I am fed up with equivocating and making excuses for the rank failure of others to respect the rights of those around them as they wail and shriek about the non-existent claims they assert to be fundamental. "We need our WEAVES!" Yeah, muh weeves...

Like I said, I don't support the idea, but I am informed about it and understand why many libertarian economists do.

The reason being that they prove themselves to be less than libertarian. Walking away from the basis of one's purported personal philosophy because he wishes to avoid the ugly conflicts that arise on the path from where one stands to the place he intends on going will not lead one to that place, but rather will cause him to walk about in circles as a man wandering thus in a barren and life-consuming desert.

This is pure and thinly veiled cowardice. It is nothing nobler.

In A Conflict of Visions, Sowell wrote about the "constrained" and "unconstrained" visions. The constrained vision sees the world as it is,

Famous last words. Perception is a very tricky thing, and VERY powerful. As convinced as you or I may be about the world as it is (or should be), so is the jihadist who runs about hither-thither sawing off the heads of people. At some point, if you and I wish to survive we will be required by cold hard reality to make the choice to physically kill those with whom the conflict has arisen... let us call him Johnny Jihad just for conversation's sake. The conflict at hand is one of an irreconcilable nature. Johnny is not going to be persuaded to cease and desist with logic, reason, or appeals to mercy, justice, or simple charity. He is going to hunt us and he is going to saw off our heads. That is, unless we stop him without equivocation, which of course means killing him.

Oh yes, we could black-bag him to some desert island in the middle of the South Pacific, but that is an insufficient solution. Firstly, he remains alive and with him his intentions, perceptions, objectives, and so on. Secondly, there are millions like him - capturing each is rife with risk in itself. Then there is the practical problem of storage space for such people, not to mention the risks posed by large gatherings of such people, even on desert islands. And the list goes on, the point being that not only from the standpoint of principle, but of pragmatics, the only real solution is to kill him. That puts you and me behind the 8-ball of having to make a choice that we don't want to make, but must in any event if we wish to keep our heads.

So it is with the welfare state. At some point all the bullshit and excuses are going to have to go by the wayside if we are not to be bled dry, the vestigial threads of our prosperity flushed down the drain of some housing project in Chicago.

whereas the unconstrained vision sees the world as the way they want it to be.

Are you implying that there is no place for the normative?

When using the unconstrained vision and a libertarian mindset, this idea looks bad.

Because it IS bad. Very bad. Worse than those with other normative visions are apparently willing to admit. And here we see that those who claim the "constrained" vision are actually naught more than those of the bunnies-and-light unconstrained variety, masquerading as realists. "Oooo look at us... we see things as they are... That makes us credible and truthful, and therefore you have to listen to and do as we say..." It is precisely the goal of the vigorously masturbating progressive (or other fantasizer) to peddle his bullshit normative views as those of hard and unassailable reality. I have borne witness to this phenomenon countless tens of thousands of times and I see it made manifest daily.

But when using the constrained vision and a libertarian mindset, this idea seems like a reasonable trade-off which could actually create societal benefits and would wean dependency. Most successful economists employ the constrained vision since it relies on empirical evidence.

"Seems" My penis "seems" like it goes on forever, or so I am told by my stable.

It may "seem" reasonable, but I am here to destroy that failed perception. Temporary shit has the worst habit of becoming permanent. Evading the ugly bumps in the road that we have put there in order to avoid jostling the feelings of some is no solution... recall wandering in circles in hot places that kill you without mercy.

At the end of the day, there is no soft, cuddly, warm and fuzzy solution to getting us out of the corner into which we have painted ourselves with paint that is not only instantly fatal on contact, but never dries. We are in shit up to our eyeballs. The brand of thinking that you are describing (not meaning to say it is YOUR thinking, mind you) completely ignores and discounts this reality in favor of bunnies and light and unicorn poo. There will be no gentle transition out of this - not because it is absolutely impossible, but because it is virtually so due to the nature of the human animal.

We have thousands of years of the same old shit as examples of what we are and how we behave. What there leads anyone to conclude that all of a sudden we are going to act differently this time? This is the classic mistake we make over and over again. Is it not time we cut the shit and get down to some sense about this sort of thing? Our refusal to do so says both bad and good things about us - the good being that nobody wants to be the bad guy such that others are hurt. Fair enough and in fact commendable. The bad there, however, being that we get ourselves into shit in the first place precisely because of the aforementioned good, we fail to learn from our mistakes, and we would often rather flirt with our own destruction than come to reality's sense and do what must be done in order to preserve ourselves.

Am I obliged to live as a rape victim in order to spare the delicate feelings of others? Where does one draw that line?

The fact is that if we want to be free people, and that "if" stands in deep question at this point, some very ugly shit is going to be the price we will have to pay to get it. That probably means lots of dead bodies. If that price is too high, then I say to the wad who claim to want liberty:

SHUT THE FUCK UP, GO HOME, SETTLE WITH YOUR STATUS AS A SLAVE, AND STOP BOTHERING YOURSELVES AND THE REST OF US WITH YOUR HALF-BAKED, COWARDLY SOLUTIONS.

It really is as simple as that. We are deep in the feces and some of us will not make it out of the septic tank, if even any will... unless of course you think that someone is likely to invent the anti-gravity suit with nothing more than floaters. tampons, and spent condoms as resource materials.
 
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The pure libertarian message can only go so far, or that is what those seeking mass appeal seem to think. Until our unadulterated ideology becomes more widely accepted, I think some here may need to get used to it or quit following politics altogether or you'd be too disappointed too much of the time.

If I was running for office, I wouldn't bring the entire libertarian message with me either.

This is the Oprah Winfrey method.

She started out with a show so horrid as to bare no good mention. But according to her, she whored herself pursuant to the goal of gaining enough power to call her own shots.

On this method I admit to being torn. My inner pragmatist am approve. My inner idealist am vomit. They regularly approach each other with long knives.

My life is a living hell.
 
Setting up a "universal basic income system" (I'm assuming that is what UBI means) sets up a whole different set of expectations than "phasing out welfare" does, even when the stated purpose of the former is the latter.
Yes. This is like giving methadone to a heroin addict. Something that can reduce the pain and unpleasantness of the withdrawal symptoms. Obviously, if you weren't addicted in the first place, no one would suggest taking methadone. But that's not where we are. However, as Hazlitt finally (after about 30 years) pointed out, the methadone has its own problems.

Like I said, I don't support the idea, but I am informed about it and understand why many libertarian economists do. In A Conflict of Visions, Sowell wrote about the "constrained" and "unconstrained" visions. The constrained vision sees the world as it is, whereas the unconstrained vision sees the world as the way they want it to be. When using the unconstrained vision and a libertarian mindset, this idea looks bad. But when using the constrained vision and a libertarian mindset, this idea seems like a reasonable trade-off which could actually create societal benefits and would wean dependency. Most successful economists employ the constrained vision since it relies on empirical evidence.

:confused: How can giving everyone a guaranteed basic income wean anyone from dependency? Indeed, how can it serve to do anything other than "universalize" dependency to the greatest extent possible?

And what is being "traded off" with what ("reasonably" or otherwise)? The idea is supposed to be that a "UBI" would replace current welfare schemes, rather than serve as an addendum to them. But if it ever actually came to it, I see no reason to think that the former would happen, and no reason to think that the latter would not. And in any case, the "UBI" is every bit as much an "unconstrained vision" as any of those other welfare schemes have always been. A "universal basic income" cannot sensibly be said to be a "constrained vision," regardless of what else it might be considered in relation to.

(I will leave unaddressed the reification involved in invoking alleged "societal" benefits, as distinct from the benefits endowed upon some people in society at the expense of the others ...)
 
Note that the progressives, for example, did not achieve their many successes over the last century and more by means of ingratiatingly placative conciliation.
We give these guys too much credit for strategy, as if they were brilliant strateticians and that's why they won. Some of them were brilliant(ish) and we can appreciate that. But that's not why they triumphed. Progressivism has biology on its side. That's a pretty big advantage. Hard to fight biology.

Especially when you don't know you're fighting biology. Then you just keep losing, losing, losing, and never understand why. Welcome to the story of the right in the 20th and 21st centuries!
 
:confused: How can giving everyone a guaranteed basic income wean anyone from dependency? Indeed, how can it serve to do anything other than "universalize" dependency to the greatest extent possible?

I think you need to look into it a little. The way it's structured, it actually encourages people to earn more (instead of punishing them) and removes dictates about how they can spend. It's supposed to be a sort of seeding mechanism for the free market for those in poverty. Watch the Friedman video I posted.

But I agree with you (and Buckley) that political forces would ruin it faster than it was implemented. Which would wipe out any trade-off over the current system.


*Mostly, though, I just wish people would actually learn and understand what they're talking about before they criticize it. You would think that there must have been a reason it appealed to Hayek, Hazlitt, Friedman, Sowell, Murray, and others... Maybe people would want to, you know, think about what they're talking about???!!
 
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Johnson is just using the Libertarian Party to see how many disgruntled deadbeat Bernie supporters he can get to vote for him. He knows he's not going to win. He knows that nothing he is doing will further the Libertarian message

He's just being an attention whore on the Libertarian Party's dime.
 
Note that the progressives, for example, did not achieve their many successes over the last century and more by means of ingratiatingly placative conciliation.
We give these guys too much credit for strategy, as if they were brilliant strateticians and that's why they won. Some of them were brilliant(ish) and we can appreciate that. But that's not why they triumphed. Progressivism has biology on its side. That's a pretty big advantage. Hard to fight biology.

Especially when you don't know you're fighting biology. Then you just keep losing, losing, losing, and never understand why. Welcome to the story of the right in the 20th and 21st centuries!

I didn't praise progressives for being brilliant strategists.

I simply noted that they did not achieve their political objectives by trying to be unobjectionable milquetoasts.
 
I think you are missing the point. Some of us feel that Gary Johnson wants to take away fundamental liberties that are very clear in the Constitutiton. He is running for office for which he will have to swear an oath to protect and defend those rights. If he can't do that, he should not run. I live a fairly quiet life, and I stand to lose the freedoms that mean the most to me. It's not abut what you want to do. It's about what you will be responsible for.

I empathize with that. For myself, the freedoms of my wife and 6 young ones depending on us come into the picture. Some people get a good feeling from trump and believe he will protect them. A donald "Bomb the Shit Out of 'Em" trump presidency is not going to protect the freedoms of my kids. It's more likely they'll end up conscripted and sent to IED-land. trump is also horrid on civil liberties, eminent domain, health care, the Federal Reserve, etc.

Your libertarian/not libertarian determination doesn't even begin to concern me. Johnson is way, way better in every way concerning rights and civil liberties than trumplary. Even more importantly, a good showing for the LP would go a long way toward changing the mindset of Americans fundamentally.
 
Your libertarian/not libertarian determination doesn't even begin to concern me. Johnson is way, way better in every way concerning rights and civil liberties than trumplary. Even more importantly, a good showing for the LP would go a long way toward changing the mindset of Americans fundamentally.

I find this to be a valid argument and it is why I remain undecided. I could write-in Paul like I've done for the last two cycles or I could throw the LP a bone.
 
It's a good thing if it replaces all other welfare on a 1-1 basis. Then there would be zero administration of it needed, so you end up with significant savings.
 
For further reference if anyone is actually interested in why many libertarian thinkers have proposed this and similar ideas in the past:

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/welfare-pensions/the-ideal-welfare-system-is-a-basic-income/

https://www.amazon.co.uk/In-Our-Hands-Replace-Welfare/dp/0844742236

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/welfare-pensions/we-need-a-negative-income-tax-not-a-living-wage

http://www.libertarianism.org/columns/libertarian-case-basic-income

and finally, Hazlitt's rebuttal:
https://mises.org/library/fallacies-negative-income-tax

It is true that a "negative income tax" (which is a misleading name for a tapered-off guaranteed income) would not have quite as destructive an effect on incentives as would a straight guaranteed income. In fact, some thirty years ago I put forward a similar proposal myself. This appeared in an article in The Annalist (a weekly then published by the New York Times) of January 4, 1939. I suggested what I called a "tapering subsidy," a relief payment that would be reduced by only $1 for every $2 the relief recipient earned by himself.

But I abandoned the proposal when I realized that it leads straight into a dilemma, which is precisely the dilemma of the negative income tax: either it is altogether inadequate at the lower end of the scale of self-earnings, or it is unjustifiably excessive at the higher end.

There. Hopefully, at least now we can discuss this knowledgably instead of the stupid, knee-jerk reactions of the ill-informed.
 
The absolute surest, quickest, way to make Individuals or groups of Individuals economically dependent upon government (therefore subservient to government) is for government to subsidize Individuals or group of Individuals. It's a pretty basic algorithm. The means cannot be separated from the end when judged morally. The ending is the same no matter the means.
 
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The absolute surest, quickest, way to make Individuals or groups of Individuals economically dependent upon government (therefore subservient to government) is for government to subsidize Individuals or group of Individuals. It's a pretty basic algorithm.

I agree. So are transitional programs ever advisable?
 
So are transitional programs ever advisable?

Only if you also agree that it is moral and constitutional to violate the primary principles of freedom of association and the principles of private property. The principles of association exists for the purpose of freedom of association in self-governance. And, of course, the right to property is the principal support for The Individual's right to Life and Liberty itself.

Also, taking from others in order to achieve social reform is anti-private property. Congress is not authorized to tax and spend as it pleases just because it thinks something like this will serve the "general welfare." It needs authorization. Consent. And we must, again, reflect the principles of association in order to place that into relative, functional, context. The principles of property and freedom of association. Which I mentioned.

Federalist no 10 might be be a good read here (Jefferson's thoughts on it.) Probably the Massachusetts Resolutions, too (Otis and Adams' thoughts on it.) Unconstitutional and despotic, I think is what those two called it.

That's actually a very deep discussion. Which kind of gets me chuckling given that we've been accused of not thinking things through all the way.

The problem is that y'alls solution becomes a patent rejection of our most fundamental supporting principles of self-governance and is effectively/affectively aggressive toward the right to Life and Liberty. You just don't see it because you're focused on this "campaign" fodder. I get it. This is the nature of fragmented logic.
 
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Dang. I just thought of a new sig line. I'm running out of space down there, though.

"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance." (Declaration of Independence)

Can I get a holla back?
 
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I didn't praise progressives for being brilliant strategists.

I simply noted that they did not achieve their political objectives by trying to be unobjectionable milquetoasts.

I didn't mean you in particular. My point is just that they didn't really "achieve" their objectives. More they fell into it. It fell into their laps. It was going to happen regardless. The progression to the left is a feature of all civilizational declines, as far as we know. From Cato (both of them) to Elagabalus to Arcadius. Weaker, weaker, weaker. Softer, softer, softer. More spoiled, more spoiled, more spoiled. That's the progression we're going through now. The left just rode the wave, they didn't make it.

But I agree with your point, too, and am 100% in favor of not being tasteless, salt-less, bland, dry wafers. Gotta shake things up!



This is a revolution -- yes, some feelings will be hurt!
 
Only if you also agree to violate the primary principles of freedom of association and the principles of private property. The principles of association exists for the purpose of freedom of association in self-governance.

Also, taking from others in order to achieve social reform is anti-private property. Congress is not authorized to tax and spend as it pleases just because it thinks something like this will serve the "general welfare." It needs authorization. Consent. And we must, again, reflect the principles of association in order to place that into relative, functional, context. The principles of property and freedom of association. Which I mentioned.

Federalist no 10 might be be a good read here (Jefferson's thoughts on it.) Probably the Massachusetts Resolutions, too (Otis and Adams' thoughts on it.) Unconstitutional and despotic, I think is what those two called it.

That's actually a very deep discussion. Which kind of gets me chuckling given that we've been accused of not thinking things through all the way.

The problem is that y'alls solution becomes a patent rejection of our most fundamental supporting principles of self-governance and is effectively/affectively aggressive toward the right to Life and Liberty. You just don't see it because you're focused on this "campaign" fodder. I get it. This is the nature of fragmented logic.

I'm with you. Eliminate the welfare and warfare states wholesale. However...
 
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