Freedom of Speech in the Public Classroom... Need your help/court cases

[sratiug]

...

This also is coming from the perspective of me being an actual teacher... I would never allow that sort of topic to be discussed in the classroom just because it would cause ME to be the target of the lawsuit from other parents rather than them targeting the free speech issue which falls on the school administration and the district policies.

If you are a high school teacher, I think you should quit.

 

[Bruno]

As the 1st of the 3 plaintiffs suspended from Roosevelt HS in Des Moines, Iowa, in December, 1965, for wearing a black armband which established Student Rights in America, I just wanted to add that I enjoyed all of your comments.

That's incredible! I commend and thank you for standing up for you beliefs and your fight for liberty in 1965.

Welcome to Liberty Forest! Have you been lurking for awhile?

 

[TCE]

Your brother, unfortunately, stands virtually no chance. The student handbooks with the rules in the back are incredibly vague and give the school immense amounts of power. Prisoners have more rights than most high schoolers, unfortunately. They usually make reference to inappropriate topics and it is at the school's discretion whether those topics will be allowed.

 

[Andrew-Austin]

to make things even more ridiculous, a different teacher from another class is actually using the marijuana debate as an assigned topic of debate lol

See if he can transfer in to that class.

We could transfer classes when I was in school, just had to get a counselor to understand. It would be the most simple thing to do, and if possible would get a point across to the teacher.

edit: BTW, you should show your brother this awesome pro-liberty pro individualism anti-government-school podcast: http://schoolsucks.podomatic.com/

 

[InterestedParticipant]

A school is not necessarily a free speech zone, its not open.

Are you kidding me. What kind of post is this? "Free Speech Zone" what an abomination of a concept manufactured by the power process. And to see someone referring to it here makes me want to throw up.

 

[Rancher]

Freedom of Speech in the Public Classroom...

Government public school system doing their job of schooling your brother.

It is sad that the school system is not an education system.

 

[Travlyr]

This would be a non-issue in a free market. If parents did not like the agenda, then they simply find a system more aligned with their beliefs.

 

[jsu718]

If you are a high school teacher, I think you should quit.

If I were in a school that compelled history teachers to dismiss that sort of topic I probably would quit. I actually have quit at a school before over a less political issue, but I teach middle school math/science so I can't really legitimize discussing that sort of topic in the classroom beyond perhaps the health effects which I would indeed be honest about. I am well educated on both sides of that particular issue.

As to your point given the section you quoted... if I get fired over something life at that school goes on exactly as it always has and the issue goes away. If it is brought up with the school/administration then things actually change. You might think of it as me avoiding the issue, but in reality I know better the consequences of those specific actions than you would, especially given what I have already gone through dealing with administration.

 

[t0rnado]

As the 1st of the 3 plaintiffs suspended from Roosevelt HS in Des Moines, Iowa, in December, 1965, for wearing a black armband which established Student Rights in America, I just wanted to add that I enjoyed all of your comments.

If this is true, I want to thank you for defending your rights and the rights of countless others during a time period in which they were being trampled upon.

As far as the school's "handbooks" and "guidelines" go, they are not laws. They are simply POLICIES which the school wants you to follow. This can easily be challenged in court even if your brother did sign a guidelines form. He probably signed it under duress of punishment such as detention.

You should also contact the ACLU and keep a copy of the email the teacher sent to your brother. It doesn't matter what age you are; you still have rights. The teacher is a fucking idiot, who shouldn't have a job.

If the teacher punishes or ostracizes your brother again, this will be an open/shut case. If you do decide to take legal action, the school will not want to go to court since they will without a doubt lose, so they will probably want to settle.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

Well a child can't go into a classroom and start cursing to the teacher or his peers and claim his freedom of speech, nor can he go into a classroom and say derogatory comments to other children based on their race, sex, religion or whatever, and claim his freedom of speech.

I cannot believe what I am reading. Do you have any idea have mislead your understanding is?

 

[angelatc]

In addition to the Tinker decision, Alito wrote while it was within the limits of the the school's power to forbid advocacy of illegal drug use, that advocacy of the legalization of the use of marijuana, for example, would fall within the student's First Amendment rights.

Morse v Frederic : http://www.scotusblog.com/archives/06-278_All.pdf

 

[angelatc]

I think your brother should change his topic to [URL="http://grandrants.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/%E2%80%9Csafe-school-czar%E2%80%9D-defends-graphic-classroom-descriptions-of-gay-sex-acts-to-children/"]Whether fisting should be taught to underage school children[/URL].

I very much like this idea.

 

[Reason]

In addition to the Tinker decision, Alito wrote while it was within the limits of the the school's power to forbid advocacy of illegal drug use, that advocacy of the legalization of the use of marijuana, for example, would fall within the student's First Amendment rights.

Morse v Frederic : [url]http://www.scotusblog.com/archives/06-278_All.pdf[/URL]

"Within the limits" would imply that it is within their power to do wouldn't it?

I'm confused.

 

[angelatc]

"Within the limits" would imply that it is within their power to do wouldn't it?

I'm confused.

Yes. He is saying that while the school can prohibit the advocation of illegal activities (as in "Drugs are fun!" Screw the law!") the school can't prohibit the advocation of changing drug law, because it is within the student's First Amendment rights to do that.

 

[Reason]

Yes. He is saying that while the school can prohibit the advocation of illegal activities (as in "Drugs are fun!" Screw the law!") the school can't prohibit the advocation of changing drug law, because it is within the student's First Amendment rights to do that.

Thanks, do you know where in that massively long PDF it talks about that?

 

[Paulitician]

To make a quip related to this thread (though not directly addressing it): there is no freedom in compulsory schooling.

 

[angelatc]

Thanks, do you know where in that massively long PDF it talks about that?

It's on page 32.

"I join the opinion of the Court on the understanding that
(a) it goes no further than to hold that a public school may
restrict speech that a reasonable observer would interpret
as advocating illegal drug use and (b) it provides no support
for any restriction of speech that can plausibly be
interpreted as commenting on any political or social issue,
including speech on issues such as “the wisdom of the war
on drugs or of legalizing marijuana for medicinal use.” "

The rest of his opinion is expounding on this.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

College is an open forum for free speech, but High School and Middle School isn't, you don't just have protesters go on a high school or elementary school campus. It however is allowed in public universities.

Please tell me, where do the public schools (ie. Government) get this power that you speak of? I know, ultimately it is through the power of a gun, but where are the foundational documents that support your line of reasoning. Please show them.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Public property was once own by the king

Need links/sources/court cases concerning freedom of speech in a public school.

My younger brother is in high school and recently had an assignment to give a presentation on a political issue.

He chose the legalization of marijuana and when he came in with his poster

He was told that marijuana was not an appropriate topic and was forced to keep his poster sealed in his backpack...

Later that day the teacher overheard him discussing the issue with another student and told him that if he wanted to keep pursuing this that he would need to start calling parents and pursue disciplinary action...

Later that day he sent my brother an email that said...

"Politics aside ****,

You well know that this is not an appropriate classroom conversation. When you are consenting adult, you may have whatever conversation, and belief you wish.

Just not in my classroom.


Don't forget,, you are a " MINOR".

You get a choice when you get to vote...

~~~~

So far I have told him that,

There is nothing inappropriate about calm intellectual discussion.

Ever.

Your teacher is an idiot and doesn't understand the first amendment apparently, it's called freedom of speech.

You aren't harming anyone or negatively impacting your fellow students ability to learn therefore you are absolutely within your right to speak about your position on marijuana.

You could say that Stalin is the greatest guy ever if you want and people can be offended all they want but they can't shut you up.

The only time a public school can silence you is if they can make a convincing argument that your actions are preventing other students from learning/doing w/e they are supposed to be doing in class. (ie: a shirt with a picture of dead bodies that causes other students to throw up hence preventing them from going about their classroom activities)

First off, if the teacher is dumb, then that doesn't make you smart. The real solution isn't to be smart, but to be even smarter.
There are places at the school which are your younger brother's property to express himself, protest, and for him to share his propaganda with this mainly being the sidewalk outside. The teacher is right when he says that your brother is a minor in need of adult supervision as a child should be supervised when doing anything outside of walking to and from their school and home.
Indeed, the classroom is public property, but a classroom has to be appropriate to the extent that a history class teaches history and not geography. So, when a teacher says something is so, it is so. When a child gets older and pays for their education, then they will earn the right to challenge whether it is so or not.
This is why note taking is taught in the lower classes so that professors of higher learning can teach not just text book material but cutting edge stuff from on time journals.
And remember, beyond the reality we see with our five senses is the self evident and unalienable Truth. This is what is important. Every male and female man sees it. Every conscience of the smallest child perceives it when they draw a simple stick figure with a little upward curve of a smile on its face. Life is not complete without contentment.
This ideal was first introduced by the Greek philosophers and then bless by the Gospel of the Almighty before our Founding Fathers declared it as a natural law.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

First off, if the teacher is dumb, then that doesn't make you smart. The real solution isn't to be smart, but to be even smarter.
There are places at the school which are your younger brother's property to express himself, protest, and for him to share his propaganda with this mainly being the sidewalk outside. The teacher is right when he says that your brother is a minor in need of adult supervision as a child should be supervised when doing anything outside of walking to and from their school and home.
Indeed, the classroom is public property, but a classroom has to be appropriate to the extent that a history class teaches history and not geography. So, when a teacher says something is so, it is so. When a child gets older and pays for their education, then they will earn the right to challenge whether it is so or not.
This is why note taking is taught in the lower classes so that professors of higher learning can teach not just text book material but cutting edge stuff from on time journals.
And remember, beyond the reality we see with our five senses is the self evident and unalienable Truth. This is what is important. Every male and female man sees it. Every conscience of the smallest child perceives it when they draw a simple stick figure with a little upward curve of a smile on its face. Life is not complete without contentment.
This ideal was first introduced by the Greek philosophers and then bless by the Gospel of the Almighty before our Founding Fathers declared it as a natural law.

This is rhetoric indicative of an indoctrinated mind. Does anyone here see what is wrong with this, and is anyone here going to call it out, or am I the only one?