Free Trade vs Protectionism (help me out here)

Nope, this country used to make most of it's products and it was a direct result of tariffs. Rewriting history will not work here. Not only did we produce our own goods, we processed much of our own raw materials and had grown so much food, we gave it away to the less fortunate. Prior to NAFTA, our #1 exports were aircraft industry and machinery/parts. Today, our #1 export is waste. (unless you would like to count jobs lost as an export) Almost all of those "Japanese" companies had built plants here. Sony, Honda, Toyota all moved because it was cheaper to make the products here than it was to pay the tariffs. You are correct in that our problems started long before NAFTA. Our problems started when Hamilton tried to turn us into another Britain. He should have been shot sooner. Much of our problems that have adversely effected us today can be traced directly and indirectly to the Morgan family. NAFTA has been the nail in the coffin and JP Morgan was the hammer.
 
You are correct in that our problems started long before NAFTA. Our problems started when Hamilton tried to turn us into another Britain. He should have been shot sooner. Much of our problems that have adversely effected us today can be traced directly and indirectly to the Morgan family. NAFTA has been the nail in the coffin and JP Morgan was the hammer.

We agree on that much at least for sure. Hamilton should have been shot sooner, the Morgans should have gone down with the Titanic, and you left out Rockefeller, but I won't quibble, as it sounds like we are in agreement, at least on the original causes.

As for your assertion that our country made most of its own products as a direct result of tariffs, while completely ignoring sound money policies internally (at times, on the whole), we can continue to disagree.
 
Where do I begin? I wanted to state that I am a loser for having my own individual liberty - the untrammeled freedom to come and go as I please - taxed. But let's take on just one from your list:

5. Congress should levy tariffs on all goods coming into the United States to recuperate lost revenues due to the elimination of Capital Gains and Corporate taxes.

Firstly, I don't care about lost revenues for Capital Gains, which are often tantamount to "inflation taxes" (paying for the privilege of having your currency devalued by an already hidden tax). That one is not always about profits anyway, and is already a tax that picks winners and losers.

Furthermore, levying a tariff on foreign goods coming into the United States gives an artificial incentive for American interests not be as competitive. I don't see that as a good thing at all, or anything but damaging - especially in the long term. It sounds good on paper, as it appears on the surface only to choose winners and losers on the manufacturing side, but the additional loser that you left out is the CONSUMER.

In addition, you will have incentivized (as we have done so many times in the past) those on the foreign side to a) devalue their own currency to remain competitive, and/or b) slash their own prices (offer a sale and accept less, even long term) to make themselves more competitive, and/or c) work all the harder to make a superior product which is naturally more competitive despite the difference in price. In reality, it is a combination of all the foregoing, and then some. They don't just sit back and take it. AND, you don't have control over the amounts or tariffs they will NO DOUBT put up in return, to try and make up the artificial difference with one that is equally artificial on their part.

Really, this should be discussed in the thread made for it. See you there.
 
We agree on that much at least for sure. Hamilton should have been shot sooner, the Morgans should have gone down with the Titanic, and you left out Rockefeller, but I won't quibble, as it sounds like we are in agreement, at least on the original causes.

As for your assertion that our country made most of its own products as a direct result of tariffs, while completely ignoring sound money policies internally (at times, on the whole), we can continue to disagree.

I also failed to mention King Rothschild...lol
I have never ignored sound money. This country once backed it's currency with gold and silver and now it is nothing more then debt and interest. This happened long before tariffs were reduced to nothing therefore it was not the reason for those companies leaving. Neither has regulations which were reduced and taxes which were also reduced prior to NAFTA. This country DID make everything here and those companies made a very decent profit before they left even with our taxes and regulations. Greed set in and market share martinis flowed faster than the money out of the pockets of drunken sailors in a whore house. Backed by Rothschild, JP Morgan and others bought up whole industries, eliminated their competition creating huge monopolies and then left after buying off our government. Europe knows this, when will America and the sleeping giant wake up? This "class warfare" has yet to accelerate as it should.
 
Our problems started when Hamilton tried to turn us into another Britain. He should have been shot sooner.

Have you read his report on manufactures to congress? Or his report on public credit to congress? He was a protectionist. Was not for "free trade britain" by any means. So what you're saying makes no sense to me. He was actually opposite of Adam Smith. The problems started with Burr and his "Bank of Manhattan" which is now wallstreet and your beloved morgans you spoke of. So actually, Hamilton's only mistake, was missing ON PURPOSE when shooting "at" burr.
 
I also failed to mention King Rothschild...lol
I have never ignored sound money. This country once backed it's currency with gold and silver and now it is nothing more then debt and interest. This happened long before tariffs were reduced to nothing therefore it was not the reason for those companies leaving. Neither has regulations which were reduced and taxes which were also reduced prior to NAFTA. This country DID make everything here and those companies made a very decent profit before they left even with our taxes and regulations. Greed set in and market share martinis flowed faster than the money out of the pockets of drunken sailors in a whore house. Backed by Rothschild, JP Morgan and others bought up whole industries, eliminated their competition creating huge monopolies and then left after buying off our government. Europe knows this, when will America and the sleeping giant wake up? This "class warfare" has yet to accelerate as it should.

My problem with all of this can be equated to something I said to someone who was defending socialized health care, and "making health care more affordable" (what an assumption-loaded piece of garbage that is). They never address in ANY meaningful explanation or examination of what made health care so unaffordable in the first place. When they say "make it more affordable" what they really mean how to make others pay for it (e.g., "their fair share" of costs they accept as REAL!).

They don't want to look at the underpinnings of health care that has already long been propped up by DOMESTIC tariffs, regulations, and internal protectionism. I don't give a rat's ass about how to get creative so that we can "pay our fair share" of a cost that is artificially, perniciously UNFAIRLY PROTECTIONIST to begin with.

So no, I don't care about how to pay for it until we FIRST address (not later, not after -- NOW) the problem of how it got so ridiculously unaffordable in the first place. And it's not The Dreaded Uninsured. That's like blaming a Greedy Laborer for who needs a pay raise to keep up with inflation - for that very inflation.

The Health care and insurance industries are 100% behind any solutions that involve coming up with creative ways to pay for their crap, while giving political lip-service to "containing costs". Why wouldn't they be. They get theirs, regardless. Better that it comes from entities who only see numbers, and don't feel the costs. No negotiation to it. $43 for a bottle of aspirin in the hospital room. That's the cost. Just pay it and shut up.

As for sound currency as a protectionist measure, see this post. Poke holes in that, if you don't mind, I need to hone my schtick. ;)
 
Alexander Hamilton was the leader of the Federalist Party established in 1787. He believed in a strong central government being run by a handful of elite businessmen. They strongly supported the British. Then Secretary of State, Hamilton was key in the formation of a national bank in 1791 along the lines of the Bank of England. He was against tariffs (since most of our first imports came from England) and favored taxes. He wrote the federalist papers that very much coincided with Britain's way of life.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Smith/smWN4.html

I also suggest you read the Anti-federalist papers as well.

http://www.utulsa.edu/law/classes/rice/constitutional/antifederalist/antifed.htm

In 1800, Jefferson was elected and abolished all internal taxes, including the whiskey excise tax and the land tax in favor of tariffs. This proved to be monumental as our country began to experience unprecedented growth and self reliance for over 150 years.
"Jefferson got repealed all the direct federal taxes passed by the Federalists and boasted that ordinary Americans would never see a federal tax collector in their whole lives."
http://www.friesian.com/presiden.htm


also might want to research:
http://www.aaronburrassociation.org/

The Manhatten Company
http://www.aaronburrassociation.org/Chase Manhattan Bank.htm


Sound Currency - a currency whose actual value is the same as its nominal value; a currency which does not deteriorate or depreciate or fluctuate in comparision with the standard of values.

Steven, you're interpretation of sound money sounds more like supply and demand. This is what you wrote.

"Tom, a sound currency is the greatest protectionist measure in the world, one that does not require artificial intervention of any kind
A sound currency means that prices naturally fall as the economy grows, given a surplus of goods and services to sell relative to a very slowly expanding money supply (e.g., mining, exports). If there is a scarcity of goods and services, the prices will not fall, but once you have an excess of goods and services, prices will naturally fall"


Sound money would be money that is backed by gold or silver or something of value instead of the fiat money we have today. I do agree that a devalued currency increases prices and by printing money out of thin air does exactly that, supply and demand is driven by consumers and production. Presently, we, as a whole, cannot consume like we once did since 1/4 of this country is unemployed. Forget production numbers because our statistics are a complete fabrication embellished by NAICS (http://www.census.gov/eos/www/naics/) that categorizes such things as Big Macs, salads, pasteurization of milk into manufacturing output...lol...this system was adopted in 1997 to lie about the effects of NAFTA which was passed a couple years earlier. NAICS conveniently made those statistics retro to 1995...lol

Health care costs are a completely separate issue driven by large insurance and pharmaceutical corporations.
 
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Sound Currency - a currency whose actual value is the same as its nominal value; a currency which does not deteriorate or depreciate or fluctuate in comparision with the standard of values.

Steven, you're interpretation of sound money sounds more like supply and demand.

It is all supply and demand - regardless whether the currency is sound or not. Hard specie is just a commodity, albeit having a one-to-many relationship, which operates on the same laws of supply and demand like any other commodity. That is why our botched up bi-metal standard that conflated gold and silver values ended up with an invocation of Gresham's law, as gold and silver chased one another out of circulation at times. That never had to happen. They could have competed freely with one another and both would have remained in circulation at all times. It was ONLY because a comparative value was declared and FIXED that the market responded with the real truth behind the ever-shifting fundamentals.

Your definition of sound currency deserves closer examination, since "nominal value" of hard currency is nothing more than a unit of measure - not market value relative to anything else. The "market value" of the "nominal value" of anything, including hard specie, is something else entirely, and is never the same, as it depends on supply and demand of all units concerned, whether goods, services or units of exchange medium.

As for what "the standard values" means, I have no idea. Is there such a thing as "the standard of values"? I would like very much to see such a beast (unless it is talking about units of measurement).


Sound money would be money that is backed by gold or silver or something of value instead of the fiat money we have today.

Correct, provided it is 100% "backed" at all times. If fractional reserve lending is tolerated, the currency cannot be considered sound, regardless of its backing, since at all times there will be a percentage of counterfeit derivatives floating and competing for goods and services in the form of multiple conflicting claims to the same wealth.

But that does not mean that a "sound" money supply is fixed - nor should it be, since mining and exports alone (not to mention capital flight from countries with unsound currencies) would increase the supply in circulation as the economy grows, which in turn places downward pressure on all other "like" specie. No problem - it is just a commodity, the more the merrier, as it is limited like any other commodity and the market will adjust.

I do agree that a devalued currency increases prices and by printing money out of thin air does exactly that, supply and demand is driven by consumers and production. Presently, we, as a whole, cannot consume like we once did since 1/4 of this country is unemployed.

No, it's worse - FAR WORSE - than that even. Supply and Demand are both distorted and driven by a distorted supply of currency, and the RIDICULOUSLY artificial business cycles associated with them. And since that currency is available ONLY as debt instruments, the only way to obtain new currency to support the Full Expectation of REQUIRED growth in the form of new debts and debtors to be added - none of which can be paid off in the aggregate without crashing the entire system. That is because if all debts are paid (an impossibility, since it requires new debt to be added), ALL currency disappears from circulation.

None of that has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with being "consumption-minded", or "employed". You can be as austere as you want, and impose that austerity on others (and that day is coming down the pike, trust me on that one), and it will do nothing to save the system from its own logical impossibilities, including the bizarre requirement that, like a heroin addiction, you need increasingly larger doses just to feel "normal".

Health care costs are a completely separate issue driven by large insurance and pharmaceutical corporations.

To name but a very few, albeit large. It is all rooted in protectionism in one form or another.
 
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Protectionism is NOT what those large multinational corporations are after....lol... Have you ever read the plutonomy reports?
It's all about us vs them.


http://culturekitchen.com/files/plutonomy-2-1.pdf

Secondly, we believe that the rich are going to keep getting richer in coming years, as
capitalists (the rich) get an even bigger share of GDP as a result, principally, of globalization



Risks = What could go wrong?
Our whole plutonomy thesis is based on the idea that the rich will keep getting richer. This
thesis is not without its risks. For example, a policy error leading to asset deflation, would
likely damage plutonomy. Furthermore, the rising wealth gap between the rich and poor will
probably at some point lead to a political backlash. Whilst the rich are getting a greater share
of the wealth, and the poor a lesser share, political enfrachisement remains as was – one
person, one vote (in the plutonomies). At some point it is likely that labor will fight back
against the rising profit share of the rich and there will be a political backlash against the
rising wealth of the rich. This could be felt through higher taxation (on the rich or indirectly
though higher corporate taxes/regulation) or through trying to protect indigenous laborers, in
a push-back on globalization – either anti-immigration, or protectionism.
We don’t see this
happening yet, though there are signs of rising political tensions. However we are keeping a
close eye on developments
 
Alexander Hamilton was the leader of the Federalist Party established in 1787. He believed in a strong central government being run by a handful of elite businessmen. They strongly supported the British. Then Secretary of State, Hamilton was key in the formation of a national bank in 1791 along the lines of the Bank of England. He was against tariffs (since most of our first imports came from England) and favored taxes. He wrote the federalist papers that very much coincided with Britain's way of life.

godzilla_facepalm_godzilla_facepalm_Facepalm_collection-s640x387-82177-580.jpg
 
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Citlerzz, are you going to post some facts that prove otherwise? Please do.
 
Showpan, there is no need for me to bother wasting time with you to tell you that Jefferson supported low tariffs while Hamilton (and the British) were Mercantilist. I've shown this to you before. You argued for several pages that Mercantilism is a free trade doctrine.
 
Showpan, there is no need for me to bother wasting time with you to tell you that Jefferson supported low tariffs while Hamilton (and the British) were Mercantilist. I've shown this to you before. You argued for several pages that Mercantilism is a free trade doctrine.

lol....again, since you never showed any facts to back your claim, please be informative and show the forum that Jefferson supported low tariffs, maybe we all might learn something from you.
 
In 1800, Jefferson was elected and abolished all internal taxes, including the whiskey excise tax and the land tax in favor of tariffs.
The federal property tax Jefferson abolished was levied on buildings and slaves as well as land.
 
Roy, that free trade "utopia" that Henry George describes has never and will never exist in this capitalist world. It's simply a theory. While it actually sounds good, there would also have to be a number of other factors present for such theory to exist such as a world without borders...lol....good luck with that one.

He also states this:
The truth is, that a low rate of wages does not mean a low cost of production, but the reverse. The universal and obvious truth is, that the country where wages are highest can produce with the greatest economy, because workmen have there the most intelligence, the most spirit and the most ability; because invention and discovery are there most quickly made and most readily utilized. The great inventions and discoveries which so enormously increase the power of human labor to produce wealth have all been made in countries where wages are comparatively high (p. 126).

This describes to a tee, exactly what this country enjoyed while "protectionist" tariffs were being imposed. Our wages and production were excellent and employment opportunities were abundant. Also, before NAFTA, the consumers of this country had a choice of products to buy. I would observe that many of the people who are posting in this forum do not remember this because they are too young. Most American made products were more expensive than the "jap crap" but they were also a much higher quality and lasted longer. Today, Chinese and Mexican goods have pretty much taken over the shelves of large dept stores who have monopolized the markets by forcing the Mom and Pops to close. You have to search online for American made products and while they are more costly, they are definitely worth the money and most products online are tax free. (This is about to change since Walmart and others have been pushing for the internet sales tax) Either way, since tariffs were removed, the price for these once cheaper (crappy) goods have gone up and monopolies have been created. Wages have been reduced since employment has become scarce and immigration encouraged in order to further reduce our wages. Given the present conditions that the globalists have forced upon us, the only proven way out would be to roll back all they have changed. It would be fair to conclude that the only thing that drives their economy is perpetual war.
 
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