Free market and exploitation question.

[user]

Oh, please let me know where I can find information on this. All I remember from my days in history class is "people were poor and that's why capitalism is bad." Although I understand and agree with all the arguments against government regulation, I find it hard to get past this point with my peers who received a similar education.

Thanks!

Yeah, I guess everyone gets that propoganda in school. First the idea that the Industrial Revolution caused more poverty is not correct. Since conditions improved for many people, it became much more obvious when some people were poor. So it looked like poverty was increasing, when in reality it was decreasing.

Generally every case of a monopoly is the result of some kind of government interference. When this wasn't the case, and a company became very large, it was because of the benefits for consumers.

 

[MN Patriot]

I could use some new talking points. I've debated this guy endlessly and I've finally got him listening. I need some really solid stuff if you can help.

Here is an approach from the other direction, with a twist: socialism is exploitation, by taking from the haves and giving it to the have-nots. Your average socialist thinks the very rich should be taxed enormously, and they have been as high as 92% in past years. But what about the average working person? They get taxed at a lower rate, but it impacts them more than a higher rate for someone who is rich.

$10,000 means a lot to someone making $60,000 a year. 10 grand is just a nice vacation for someone making $600,000.

This is how the rich use political judo to exploit the middle class: keep them overtaxed, in perpetual debt and living from hand to mouth, with the income tax that the middle class socialists THINK is being used to punish the rich!!!

Then to add insult to injury, guess where the tax money goes in many cases? Back to the rich! In the form of corporate subsidies, corporate contracts for government projects like buildings, war materiel, etc.

While some middle class socialist idiot brags about how "Uncle Sam paid for something of mine" with a tax write-off (I've had plenty of people tell me how the government is paying them, when it is merely taking less of their money), the rich are getting HUGE write-offs AND their portfolio of stocks increase in value from government contracts.

 

[vertesc]

1) in a free market, all contracts are voluntary. You choose to accept the contract at $2.50 an hour, so it's hard to complain that you're being exploited.
2) in a free market, labor unions exist not to lobby government for laws in their favor, but to negotiate with employers.

Right now, if you need cheap labor, you hire illegal immigrants for dirt cheap. They don't have the right to organize a labor union, they can't sue the employer for unhealthy conditions on the job, and they can't vote to try and get reforms passed. The present system really does exploit people. A free market, by definition, cannot.

 

[vertesc]

Capitalism is NOT a way to end poverty. It is a way to institute true justice.

Consider: in nature, a human being has to produce food and shelter in order to survive. Anything that he produces himself, by natural right belongs to him. If he works his butt off and harvests a massive field of corn, it is Right and Just that all that corn should be his. He has earned the ability to get fat that season. Conversely if he produced nothing, it is Right and Just that he have nothing. To assert otherwise is to support a contradiction.

In a free market, if you provide something of value to someone else (time, work, a product, a service... whatever), you are rewarded. The amount of your reward depends on mutual free agreement between the two people involved. If you produce nothing that anyone else cares about, you are not rewarded. This is Justice, by the same rule as the corn farmer.

In a capitalist society, if you are poor it is because you are not producing anything for anyone else. If you do anything of value for other people, you are rewarded.

Remember that business is not the only way to provide value: one of the best psychological rewards people can get is from helping other people. It feels good to help someone who you think deserves the assistance, and that good feeling is a value. When you donate to the Red Cross, you are buying that nice warm fuzzy feeling, at a free trade like anything else of value.

The problem with government solutions is that they are paid for by taxation, and you don't have a free choice about paying your taxes. So whether you support the cause or not, if government gives to it you are forced to pay for it. You are exchanging your effort for nothing, or in some cases even negative value.

For example, if you believe that evolution is an evil teaching, tough shit! The product of your effort is going to support this evil teaching, thank you government. If you don't like it, tough luck. In a private system, people only have to support the causes that THEY deem worthy of support. You can pay for a school that teaches Pastafarian Creation Theory if you like.

Another great example is the Katrina disaster. The Red Cross was there beforehand, evacuating people. They were on the scene, providing serious aid... and then the government moved in (late) and ordered them out. The government forces wouldn't let anyone else in to deliver aid, and completely botched the whole thing. People got sick and died thanks to the poor care the government gave them. Now, I chose to give to the Red Cross because in my judgment it is a well-run organization that has excellent response to disasters like Katrina. Why was my money taken to support the numbnuts who messed it up, instead? I didn't get a choice about who I thought was better for the job, I was forced to support the shitty alternative.

 

[user]

Capitalism is NOT a way to end poverty.

I agree with your post, but I think capitalism is a way to end poverty. I know what you're saying is that some people will choose to be poor by not working, but I really think the vast majority of the world's poor would be glad to work for a living. Capitalism and freedom are our best weapons against poverty.

 

[vertesc]

yes they are, and I agree that many people would be glad of the opportunity to improve their lot with hard work. But not everyone. Capitalism is not a system that has much MERCY. It has near-perfect JUSTICE, however. The two are opposites.