Founding Fathers: Christians or Deists

[rmholla]

I'm not sure how anyone reads the Bible and actually believes it. Though I think that is the issue, most Christians have never read the Bible. How do they even get past Genesis without being completely miffed at how badly their churches have lied to them?

Genesis chapter 2 contradicts chapter 1. If you still think Noah took 2 of each animal on the ark, go read Genesis chapter 7 (verses 2 & 3 at least) and then read Genesis 8:20. If the first thing Noah does when he hits land is kill one of each of the clean animals and one of each bird, then how did they reproduce if he only took 2 of each?

If the founding fathers were the die hard Christians some claim they were, our laws would be much different. The founding fathers didn't simply overlook God in the Constitution, they intentionally left Him out.

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[Kade]

quite odd. I found some differing SOURCED quotes. The question is which set are true representation of what each believed?

George Washington: To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789,

(every man) "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."


John Adams wrote in a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"



James Madison from his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments (1785):

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."



Benjamin Franklin professed in his Autobiography:

"Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."



Thomas Paine from his The Age of Reason:

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. "

"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. "

Epic QFT. Nice.

There is an attempt to paint the Founders as anything but what they were... men of enlightenment, wary of Religious Statehood and Divine Right of Kings and Monarchies, and believers that men could rule themselves, and that certain natural rights should always be protected.

 

[mtmedlin]

Ever notice how, in the bible it states that God created Adam from the earth, and science states that man evolved from the earth? Could it be that God created evolution?

Just a thought....sorry for diverging yet again...

A very valid point. It very well could be that in the Bible it states, in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth. Could this also have been a Nebular cloud that began to swirl and form our galaxy. Science and the Bible can go hand in hand. Evolution could very well have been an integrated concept. ever notice how the bible doesnt even mention the dinosaurs. Does that mean that it didnt happen either?

 

[Kade]

A very valid point. It very well could be that in the Bible it states, in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth. Could this also have been a Nebular cloud that began to swirl and form our galaxy. Science and the Bible can go hand in hand. Evolution could very well have been an integrated concept. ever notice how the bible doesnt even mention the dinosaurs. Does that mean that it didnt happen either?

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12

Plants evolved from aquatic spore reproducing marine organisms. The earliest angiosperm is about 125 million years ago... in reality, flowering plants didn't exist until then. This is a major contradiction.

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

In evolution, because the concept of a male sex was most likely a result of a parasitic relationship of early multicellular organisms, there is a strong indication that technically, "Females" were first... the "Y" chromosome basically proves this without a doubt...

I could really go on for hours... let me know if you want some more.

 

[Macon GA]

Dinosaurs in the Bible???

ever notice how the bible doesnt even mention the dinosaurs.

Actually, the reason you don't find the word "Dinosaur" in the Bible is because the KJV was translated from Greek and Hebrew into English in 1611. The word "Dinosaur" was not coined until 1841.

You do see the Bible making mention of "dragons."

Isaiah 34:13
Malachi 1:3
Jeremiah 14:6

Job mentions "Behemoth" which sounds a lot like a dinosaur to me:

"Behold now Behemoth (whom I made with thee) which eateth grass as an ox. Behold now his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. When he taketh pleasure, his tail is like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.... He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him, will make his sword to approach unto him.

"Leviathan" is also mentioned.

"The majesty of his scales is like strong shields, and are sure sealed. One is joined to another: they stick together, and they cannot be sundered. His sneezings make the light to shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Out of his nostrils cometh out smoke, as out of a boiling pot or caldron. His breath maketh the coals burn: for a flame goeth out of his mouth...."

 

[Kade]

Actually, the reason you don't find the word "Dinosaur" in the Bible is because the KJV was translated from Greek and Hebrew into English in 1611. The word "Dinosaur" was not coined until 1841.

You do see the Bible making mention of "dragons."

Isaiah 34:13
Malachi 1:3
Jeremiah 14:6

Job mentions "Behemoth" which sounds a lot like a dinosaur to me:

"Behold now Behemoth (whom I made with thee) which eateth grass as an ox. Behold now his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. When he taketh pleasure, his tail is like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.... He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him, will make his sword to approach unto him.

"Leviathan" is also mentioned.

"The majesty of his scales is like strong shields, and are sure sealed. One is joined to another: they stick together, and they cannot be sundered. His sneezings make the light to shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Out of his nostrils cometh out smoke, as out of a boiling pot or caldron. His breath maketh the coals burn: for a flame goeth out of his mouth...."

I don't believe in Dragons.

 

[Cinnaboo]

Some atheists want to believe in the immortal soul, but not me. I'd truthfully prefer an ending, to go up in flames with my earthly and only form.

However, this dragon lore has stirred something...

What is this glowing sensation!? This tranquil tingling! Is it.. Hope? No... it's much more than that.

Is this His infinite love? O Father I shalt not dishonor you henceforth. O Might there be room in your boundless affection for this petulant child, for finally he has tasted the salty goodness of your enveloping heart.

Dragons are REALLL!!!

 

[Kade]

Some atheists want to believe in the immortal soul, but not me. I'd truthfully prefer an ending, to go up in flames with my earthly and only form.

However, this dragon lore has stirred something...

What is this glowing sensation!? This tranquil tingling! Is it.. Hope? No... it's much more than that.

Is this His infinite love? O Father I shalt not dishonor you henceforth. O Might there be room in your boundless affection for this petulant child, for finally he has tasted the salty goodness of your enveloping heart.

Dragons are REALLL!!!

I am trumped. Praise be to the dragons.


BTW, excellent Macon quote... I'm starting a collection myself.

 

[ryanmkeisling]

Actually, the reason you don't find the word "Dinosaur" in the Bible is because the KJV was translated from Greek and Hebrew into English in 1611. The word "Dinosaur" was not coined until 1841.

You do see the Bible making mention of "dragons."

Isaiah 34:13
Malachi 1:3
Jeremiah 14:6

Job mentions "Behemoth" which sounds a lot like a dinosaur to me:

"Behold now Behemoth (whom I made with thee) which eateth grass as an ox. Behold now his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly. When he taketh pleasure, his tail is like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.... He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him, will make his sword to approach unto him.

"Leviathan" is also mentioned.

"The majesty of his scales is like strong shields, and are sure sealed. One is joined to another: they stick together, and they cannot be sundered. His sneezings make the light to shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Out of his nostrils cometh out smoke, as out of a boiling pot or caldron. His breath maketh the coals burn: for a flame goeth out of his mouth...."

Not to contribute to this thread being off topic again but I am of the understanding that the Bible puts the creation of the earth around 5,000 years ago? Am I wrong about this? Yet dinosaurs are known to have been around millions of years ago? I read the bible when I was young and forced to but quickly did my best to forget about the whole thing as it is a confusing, contradictory document. Anyone care to enlighten me about this?

 

[sophocles07]

Not to contribute to this thread being off topic again but I am of the understanding that the Bible puts the creation of the earth around 5,000 years ago? Am I wrong about this? Yet dinosaurs are known to have been around millions of years ago? I read the bible when I was young and forced to but quickly did my best to forget about the whole thing as it is a confusing, contradictory document. Anyone care to enlighten me about this?

There's nothing really to be enlightened about, you're already right. Macon, GA just likes to go to absurdly ridiculous lengths to justify the literal historical truth of an obviously defunct literary document.

 

[Deborah K]

There's nothing really to be enlightened about, you're already right. Macon, GA just likes to go to absurdly ridiculous lengths to justify the literal historical truth of an obviously defunct literary document.

I don't think the bible is meant to be taken literally. Yes, fundamentalists take it literally but when you consider its many authors and the millennia that it encompasses, not mention who it was that assembled it and what their motivations were, it's arguable as to whether it should be taken literally.

I read the bible as a work of literature, poetry, history, and life lessons. As a result, it has enriched my life. It is intriguing to me to consider its languages and their translations as well as studying the peoples who authored the many books and letters that it entails.

What influence did the political and religious atmosphere have on those who assembled the bible? Why have some of the books been removed while others were never even given consideration for inclusion? Look at all the anthropology an archeology that has been inspired because of the Bible.

As an amateur historian, I think it is a mistake to dismiss the bible out of hand.

 

[MalcolmGandi]

I could care less about any of this bone or that bone and yes science often is not perfect. The fact that we may have evolved from apes is debatable, however evolution is undeniable and it is evident in everything we are and we do. It doesn't need to be recreated in a lab; biological evolution is the changes seen in the inherited traits of a population from one generation to the next. Evolution occurs when heritable differences become more common or rare in a population, either non-randomly through natural selection or randomly through genetic drift.

People used to think the earth was flat; we now know for a fact that it is round. People used to think the earth was created 5,000 years ago by an omnipresent "being," that even though he created everything and is omnipotent he could not help but create evil and can do nothing about its existence, and for some reason they still do despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. When someone decides to vote for Ron Paul as opposed to Hilary Clinton they evolve. When a people move and settle in higher elevations over generations their lungs get bigger to compensate; they evolve. Now I will not say time and experience will not lead us to other discoveries but evolution is here to stay and its everywhere you look.

The FACT is that this powerful explanatory and predictive theory has become the central organizing principle of modern biology, providing a unifying explanation for the diversity of life on Earth which is far more powerful and evidenced than anything else out there, ever. Evolution influences every aspect of the form and behavior of organisms. Most prominent are the specific behavioral and physical adaptations that are the outcome of natural selection. These adaptations increase fitness by aiding activities such as finding food, avoiding predators or attracting mates. Organisms can also respond to selection by co-operating with each other, usually by aiding their relatives or engaging in mutually-beneficial symbiosis. Everything evolves, it is not a belief about the past by people who weren't there. It is a scientifically demonstrable theory that happens all the time.

I was pretty sketchy about evolution until recently, I now believe it's pretty verifiable. However, I don't think we evolved from monkeys. I think it's more probable that we are extraterrestrials. Think about it. The universe is so big we can't even see most of it. We don't know how many light-years across it is. It's trillions of years old. Are we the first civilization? I doubt that very much. www.redicecreations.com

 

[MalcolmGandi]

I don't think the bible is meant to be taken literally. Yes, fundamentalists take it literally but when you consider its many authors and the millennia that it encompasses, not mention who it was that assembled it and what their motivations were, it's arguable as to whether it should be taken literally.

I read the bible as a work of literature, poetry, history, and life lessons. As a result, it has enriched my life. It is intriguing to me to consider its languages and their translations as well as studying the peoples who authored the many books and letters that it entails.

What influence did the political and religious atmosphere have on those who assembled the bible? Why have some of the books been removed while others were never even given consideration for inclusion? Look at all the anthropology an archeology that has been inspired because of the Bible.

As an amateur historian, I think it is a mistake to dismiss the bible out of hand.

The bible, in my opinion, is simply a means of control and nothing more. Religion, even more so than goverment, is a way of getting people to let you control them.

 

[sophocles07]

I read the bible as a work of literature, poetry, history, and life lessons. As a result, it has enriched my life. It is intriguing to me to consider its languages and their translations as well as studying the peoples who authored the many books and letters that it entails.

I agree completely.

Christians need to get caught up with current Biblical literary theory. Harold Bloom, considered by most academics and readers in general as the top literary critic working contemporaneously, puts forward an analysis of Jesus and Yahweh in several of his books (in particular, the Names Divine). Yahweh is one of the most schizophrenic, but interesting literary characters to have ever been invented; Jesus Bloom finds very Whitmanian, at least in Mark's version, where Jesus is always 'one step ahead' of his followers. I find these kinds of ideas and discussions much more culturally enriching than attempting to argue that the Biblical talk of "dragons" really means "dinosaurs" (as I think Macon, GA did in this thread) or attempting to prove that every word is the literal, "rational," absolute, pure, ETC word of god (as M, GA and Theocrat do) WHATEVER kind of garbage literalists waste their time with. Let's GROW UP, children; national gods are so


900 BC.