Founding Fathers: Christians or Deists

Kade, thanks for actually staying on topic with my OP. For some reason this thread got overrun with 'evo-creationist debaters".
Sorry...I couldn't help it when the "no evolution in schools" comes along I cannot keep my mouth shut. I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Oh buy the way you should check out a book A Peoples History of the United States, it is an eye opener....and it isn't really a debate as no one takes that creationist stuff seriously, how could they?
 
What about these????

George Washington: "O most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ my merciful and loving Father, I acknowledge and confess my guilt, in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of sins... Let me live according to those holy rules with Thou hast this day prescribed in Thy holy Word."

James Madison: "Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

"Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government."

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of the government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Ethan Allen: When Allen's troops surrounded Fort Ticonderoga on Lake Champlain, Allen demanded the surrender of the fort. The bewildered captain asked in whose authority was Allen making such a demand. Allen's reply:

"In the Name of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress."

John Adams: "The Christian religion is above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the blackguard Paine (Thomas) say what he will; it is resignation to God, it is goodness itself to man."

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..."

George Mason: "My soul, I resign into the hands of my Almighty Creator, whose tender mercies are over all His works, who hateth nothing that He hath made and to the Justice and Wisdom of whose dispensation I willingly and cheerfully submit, humbly hoping from His unbounded mercy and benevolence, through the merits of my blessed Savior, a remission of my sins."

Even Thomas Paine's last words were:

"I die in perfect composure and resignation to the will of my Creator, God."
 
Oh, Macon, Ga; your google founding fathers quotes delight me so (over and over again).
 
I'm Curious

Most of the most famous Founding Fathers were deist.

I consider all Deists, Non-Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, Unitarians, and other infidels, as the same mindset... All basically believe rule of man on Earth, not God.

Deists, Unitarians, Infidels and Non-Christians:

George Washington
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
James Madison
Thomas Paine
Ethan Allen
John Adams
George Mason
Robert Treat Paine
Cornelius Harnett



Personal writing between many of them show disgust, bordering on outright intolerance and infidelity towards Christianity, and in the case of Paine and Jefferson, outright atheism. Atheism at the time was a HUGE no-no, very secretive, and very unheard of... good thing times are changing, no?


It should be noted that most others were Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and Congregationalist, and a few splashes of Protestant, Catholic, and Quaker.

What proof can you provide us from the writings of these Founders themselves you've mentioned that they were deists, Unitarians, infidels, and non-Christians? I do not want what other historians have written about them; I want their own words (no block quotes, please, so I can read their writings in their original context) which would prove your conjecture that they were all deists, Unitarians, infidels, and non-Christians.

Thus, the challenge I lay before you, Kade, entails not only providing the words from the mouths and pens of these Founding Fathers which you've listed, but also clearly establishing the teachings and doctrines of Deism and Unitarianism in order that they may be synthesized accurately with the writings of these Founders (taking into account through comparative analysis lexicographic and linguistic changes of the English language that have occurred from the time of the Founders unto now in contemporary language, particularly in their use of the word "God" in relation to how we use it in 21st Century speech) to logically conclude from the evidence that they are truly deistic, Unitarian, infidel, etc. This is what I expect from you in your analysis of the theological background and beliefs of those Founding Fathers, since you've made the claim. And please, don't try to shift the burden of proof on me to prove the contrary of what you've stated, for this is not the issue I'm dealing with in this post reply. Thank you.
 
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Even Thomas Paine's last words were:

"I die in perfect composure and resignation to the will of my Creator, God."

Deists typically believe that God does not interfere with human life and the laws of the universe. Therefore, I deduced that a true deist would not think the Creator God has a presupposed "will" for His people.
 
Sorry...I couldn't help it when the "no evolution in schools" comes along I cannot keep my mouth shut. I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Oh buy the way you should check out a book A Peoples History of the United States, it is an eye opener....and it isn't really a debate as no one takes that creationist stuff seriously, how could they?

I find it funny that most people are respectful towards other people's religions, but the people that I find are the most disrespectful are the people like you.

If you don't like Christians, fine, but do you have to continuously take shots at them in all your posts?

I am a Christian, and very proud of that, but I don't push my beliefs on others and I really could care less what you believe in.

I guess that's just the difference between people who are respectful and those who aren't.
 
I find it funny that most people are respectful towards other people's religions, but the people that I find are the most disrespectful are the people like you.

If you don't like Christians, fine, but do you have to continuously take shots at them in all your posts?

I am a Christian, and very proud of that, but I don't push my beliefs on others and I really could care less what you believe in.

I guess that's just the difference between people who are respectful and those who aren't.

I would disagree, I support my atheist friends and they get crapped on by christians all the time. Until you open your eyes an see what an atheist goes through then you can never fully understand the bigotry. Christians are by far some of the most judgmental, over hysterical individuals anytime someone questions their faith or worse if you bring up evolution.
Evolutionists can no more prove what has taken millions of years to happen any more then christians can explain a supposed all knowing deity that has always existed, who made up rules that we are to live by and fully new we would never follow. So he has his creations kill off a son in order so that an all powerful god can forgive his creations of sins that he new they were going to commit BEFORE he ever created them.
Now honestly, tell me is that anymore of a provable argument then evolution.
 
I find it funny that most people are respectful towards other people's religions, but the people that I find are the most disrespectful are the people like you.

If you don't like Christians, fine, but do you have to continuously take shots at them in all your posts?

I am a Christian, and very proud of that, but I don't push my beliefs on others and I really could care less what you believe in.

I guess that's just the difference between people who are respectful and those who aren't.
I do not mean to offend anyone at all and I am truly sorry if you take offense to what I have written. I have nothing against anyone for being a christian; they tried to raise me as one in a half jewish half protestant household. My real problem is the religion itself, or moreover the various religions that fall privy to the name. They allow for the corruption of society and history is full of examples. I realize these views are not popular but am I to just shut up and stand in the corner as year after year the evidence builds? I don't think my posts are that offensive and I would never disrespect you directly as a person for your beliefs. But the FACTS remain that creationist ideas are not considered intellectually sound by anyone other than religious people who Want to believe and cannot stand to hear anything which might force them to take stock of the existing contradictions. I hope I did not offend the other posters as I was under the impression it was a healthy debate we were engaging in; just not in the right place. This was not the thread to do it in as it was way off topic. I do not take shots at Christians but rather monotheistic religion as a whole.

I am not an atheist but I do agree they get a great deal of grief for their beliefs, mostly from Christians. Many of my friends and family are either Christians or Jews. Ron Paul is a Christian. I do not discount these peoples intellect for their beliefs nor do I not have respect for them as fellow human beings and fellow Americans. I am sorry allyinoh if I offended you in any way...I will try to restrain myself from speaking my mind here.
 
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George Washington: "O most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ my merciful and loving Father, I acknowledge and confess my guilt, in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of sins... Let me live according to those holy rules with Thou hast this day prescribed in Thy holy Word."

James Madison: "Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

"Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government."

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of the government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Ethan Allen: When Allen's troops surrounded Fort Ticonderoga on Lake Champlain, Allen demanded the surrender of the fort. The bewildered captain asked in whose authority was Allen making such a demand. Allen's reply:

"In the Name of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress."

John Adams: "The Christian religion is above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the blackguard Paine (Thomas) say what he will; it is resignation to God, it is goodness itself to man."

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..."

George Mason: "My soul, I resign into the hands of my Almighty Creator, whose tender mercies are over all His works, who hateth nothing that He hath made and to the Justice and Wisdom of whose dispensation I willingly and cheerfully submit, humbly hoping from His unbounded mercy and benevolence, through the merits of my blessed Savior, a remission of my sins."

Even Thomas Paine's last words were:

"I die in perfect composure and resignation to the will of my Creator, God."

Wow Macon. Way to spend time on Christian sites for the LOSS.

Three of the quotes are horribly misquoted and false... I'll leave it to you and hopefully some decent research to figure that out for yourself...

Seriously, what a shame. Bordering on pathetic actually...

I should have suspected I would be thrown the book of famous pseudohistorian David Barton misquotes... epic.
 
Mea Culpa...

You are right about the Madison quote only.... I went back and double checked my book.

Madison did NOT say:

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

That quote was listed under Madison because he attended Princeton under the direction of Rev. John Witherspoon. The college had declared:

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

The rest are correct.
 
Wow Macon. Way to spend time on Christian sites for the LOSS.

Three of the quotes are horribly misquoted and false... I'll leave it to you and hopefully some decent research to figure that out for yourself...

Seriously, what a shame. Bordering on pathetic actually...

I should have suspected I would be thrown the book of famous pseudohistorian David Barton misquotes... epic.

Well, Kade. Don't leave us in the dark.......enlighten us! Proooove that Barton is a pseudohistorian! Proooove that the quotes are "horribly misquoted and false".
 
George Washington: "O most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ my merciful and loving Father, I acknowledge and confess my guilt, in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of sins... Let me live according to those holy rules with Thou hast this day prescribed in Thy holy Word."

James Madison: "Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

"Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government."

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of the government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Ethan Allen: When Allen's troops surrounded Fort Ticonderoga on Lake Champlain, Allen demanded the surrender of the fort. The bewildered captain asked in whose authority was Allen making such a demand. Allen's reply:

"In the Name of the Great Jehovah and the Continental Congress."

John Adams: "The Christian religion is above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the blackguard Paine (Thomas) say what he will; it is resignation to God, it is goodness itself to man."

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..."

George Mason: "My soul, I resign into the hands of my Almighty Creator, whose tender mercies are over all His works, who hateth nothing that He hath made and to the Justice and Wisdom of whose dispensation I willingly and cheerfully submit, humbly hoping from His unbounded mercy and benevolence, through the merits of my blessed Savior, a remission of my sins."

Even Thomas Paine's last words were:

"I die in perfect composure and resignation to the will of my Creator, God."


quite odd. I found some differing SOURCED quotes. The question is which set are true representation of what each believed?

George Washington: To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789,

(every man) "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."


John Adams wrote in a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"



James Madison from his Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments (1785):

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."



Benjamin Franklin professed in his Autobiography:

"Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."



Thomas Paine from his The Age of Reason:

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. "

"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. "
 
I would disagree, I support my atheist friends and they get crapped on by christians all the time. Until you open your eyes an see what an atheist goes through then you can never fully understand the bigotry. Christians are by far some of the most judgmental, over hysterical individuals anytime someone questions their faith or worse if you bring up evolution.
Evolutionists can no more prove what has taken millions of years to happen any more then christians can explain a supposed all knowing deity that has always existed, who made up rules that we are to live by and fully new we would never follow. So he has his creations kill off a son in order so that an all powerful god can forgive his creations of sins that he new they were going to commit BEFORE he ever created them.
Now honestly, tell me is that anymore of a provable argument then evolution.

Ever notice how, in the bible it states that God created Adam from the earth, and science states that man evolved from the earth? Could it be that God created evolution?

Just a thought....sorry for diverging yet again...
 
Definitions of Deist on the Web:

One who admits the possibility of the existence of a God or gods, but claims to know nothing of either, and denies revelation. ...
www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-glos.htm

A person whose worldview embraces Deism [noun] [OW] a philosophy of natural religion, emphasizing morality, and, usually, denying interference by a Creator with the laws of the universe. ...
members.aol.com/porchnus/dict01.htm

One who subscribes to or professes the belief in the existence of a personal God, based solely on the testimony of reason and rejecting any supernatural revelation; also believing that God created the world and set it into motion, subject to natural laws, but takes no interest in it
www.innvista.com/culture/religion/diction.htm

a person who believes that God created the universe and then abandoned it
of or relating to deism
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Deism is a religious philosophy and movement that became prominent in England, France, and the United States in the 17th and 18th centuries. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deist
 
Ever notice how, in the bible it states that God created Adam from the earth, and science states that man evolved from the earth? Could it be that God created evolution?

Just a thought....sorry for diverging yet again...

Another thought: why is literalism necessary for some Christians?

EVER HEARD OF METAPHOR, folks?
 
That's what i've been trying to figure out...It seems to me many of the founders were deists that had respect for Christian ideals/teachings but did not approve of the Christian practices that had been implemented in the past in the name of God and the Christian religion.

Is this a correct interpretation? Please enlighten me. :D
 
That's what i've been trying to figure out...It seems to me many of the founders were deists that had respect for Christian ideals/teachings but did not approve of the Christian practices that had been implemented in the past in the name of God and the Christian religion.

Is this a correct interpretation? Please enlighten me. :D

Most Deist reject the very idea of a "correct interpretation." Deism has no priesthood and no catechism. Your interpretation is as valid as anyone else's.

Speaking only for myself, I largely agree with your view.
 
Most Deist reject the very idea of a "correct interpretation." Deism has no priesthood and no catechism. Your interpretation is as valid as anyone else's.

Speaking only for myself, I largely agree with your view.



So this rejection of a 'correct interpretation' also applies to the Constitution? Seems to go against a strict interpretation of the Constituion when put in the these terms.
 
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