Founded on Christian principles? Griffon believes otherwise.

[BeFranklin]

Part XX
Before I enter upon my public appearance in business, it may be well to let you know the then state of my mind with regard to my principles and morals, that you may see how far those influenc'd the future events of my life. My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the Dissenting way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist. My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph; but, each of them having afterwards wrong'd me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith's conduct towards me (who was another freethinker), and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me great trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho' it might be true, was not very useful. My London pamphlet, which had for its motto these lines of Dryden:


Some books against Deism fell into my hands… It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.
"Whatever is, is right. Though purblind man Sees but a part o' the chain, the nearest link: His eyes not carrying to the equal beam, That poises all above;"
and from the attributes of God, his infinite wisdom, goodness and power, concluded that nothing could possibly be wrong in the world, and that vice and virtue were empty distinctions, no such things existing, appear'd now not so clever a performance as I once thought it; and I doubted whether some error had not insinuated itself unperceiv'd into my argument, so as to infect all that follow'd, as is common in metaphysical reasonings.

I grew convinc'd that truth, sincerity and integrity in dealings between man and man were of the utmost importance to the felicity of life; and I form'd written resolutions, which still remain in my journal book, to practice them ever while I lived. Revelation had indeed no weight with me, as such; but I entertain'd an opinion that, though certain actions might not be bad because they were forbidden by it, or good because it commanded them, yet probably these actions might be forbidden because they were bad for us, or commanded because they were beneficial to us, in their own natures, all the circumstances of things considered. And this persuasion, with the kind hand of Providence, or some guardian angel, or accidental favorable circumstances and situations, or all together, preserved me, thro' this dangerous time of youth, and the hazardous situations I was sometimes in among strangers, remote from the eye and advice of my father, without any willful gross immorality or injustice, that might have been expected from my want of religion. I say willful, because the instances I have mentioned had something of necessity in them, from my youth, inexperience, and the knavery of others. I had therefore a tolerable character to begin the world with; I valued it properly, and determin'd to preserve it.

I underlined the part where Benjamin Franklin begins to suspect this doctrine, as a good reminder.

 

[Truth Warrior]

Clicking through two links - one below the first, I find that Isaac Newton is a deist who believes in a God that set the universe in motion and just left it like that - clockwork universe.

Yet this also isn't true, and Isaac Newton wrote books commenting on revelation and bible prophecy.

Isaac Newton quotes:

If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants.

A man may imagine things that are false, but he can only understand things that are true, for if the things be false, the apprehension of them is not understanding.

If I have done the public any service, it is due to my patient thought.

We build too many walls and not enough bridges.

I keep the subject of my inquiry constantly before me, and wait till the first dawning opens gradually, by little and little, into a full and clear light.

If I have ever made any valuable discoveries, it has been owing more to patient attention, than to any other talent.

Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy.

I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.

If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.

This most beautiful system [The Universe] could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.

I was like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.

To myself I am only a child playing on the beach, while vast oceans of truth lie undiscovered before me.

No great discovery was ever made without a bold guess.

It is the weight, not numbers of experiments that is to be regarded.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people.

To me there has never been a higher source of earthly honor or distinction than that connected with advances in science.

Trials are medicines which our gracious and wise Physician prescribes because we need them; and he proportions the frequency and weight of them to what the case requires. Let us trust his skill and thank him for his prescription.

The seed of a tree has the nature of a branch or twig or bud. It is a part of the tree, but if separated and set in the earth to be better nourished, the embryo or young tree contained in it takes root and grows into a new tree.

About the Time of the End, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.

Errors are not in the art but in the artificers.

Oh Diamond! Diamond! Thou little knowest the mischief done! (Said to a pet dog who knocked over a candle and set fire to his papers.

To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction.

Yet one thing secures us what ever betide,/ The scriptures assures us the Lord will provide.

I'm kind of obsessed with that song, I've used it in almost every project I've done, ... I can't get over it. I own 30 versions of it.

What I'm trying to do with most of my work is establish this new modernism, ... If people don't walk out of theatres saying, 'Yes, something is possible,' then you've failed.

If I saw further than other men, it was because I stood on the shoulders of giants.

I am ashamed to tell you to how many figures I carried these computations, having no other business at the time.

The system of revealed truth which this Book contains is like that of the universe, concealed from common observation yet...the centuries have established its Divine origin.

Gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love.

We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances.




"Many people never grow up. They stay all their lives with a passionate need for external authority and guidance, pretending not to trust their own judgment." -- Alan Watts

 

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Look it up in Benjamin Franklin's autobiography. He gives a good account of it.

I'm going to take that as a non-answer especially as the burden of proof is yours and not mine to look up for you.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

The problem with these kind of threads is that they are soooo blindly objective. We're really all oversimplifying this issue, IMHO. The founders lived in the Enlightenment period, and would've been exposed to many different ideas and philosophies. Some were hypocrites, some were rude, some were virtuous...they all had at least a few negative qualities, just as we do. Looking at all the posts I've seen on this issue, I'd bet that the founders were at least as divided as we are.

I hope this issue dies soon so we don't have so many silly and insulting discussions. :o

 

[BeFranklin]

I'm going to take that as a non-answer especially as the burden of proof is yours and not mine to look up for you.

I don't have an obligation to you or burden, and have ceased to consider you an entity, when about 5 posts back, I gave you a civil reply to an insult post which you posted on your first try, and I continued to give you civil replies for several messages, although you didn't deserve it. I even posted an excerpt from Franklin's autobiography, taking my time for someone who was attacking me personally.

Go back to whatever hole you crawled out. I won't be turning the cheek for you again, but exposing you for the rotter you are.

 

[BeFranklin]

The problem with these kind of threads is that they are soooo blindly objective. We're really all oversimplifying this issue, IMHO. The founders lived in the Enlightenment period, and would've been exposed to many different ideas and philosophies. Some were hypocrites, some were rude, some were virtuous...they all had at least a few negative qualities, just as we do. Looking at all the posts I've seen on this issue, I'd bet that the founders were at least as divided as we are.

I hope this issue dies soon so we don't have so many silly and insulting discussions. :o

People are even divided by periods in their life, so one may mature more later on. But overall, we aren't the society we were. Fixing the government or the econonic system means nothing if America as a whole isn't fixed. Mark 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Here's a verse for the englightenment and the dark ages:

Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

People are even divided by periods in their life, so one may mature more later on. But overall, we aren't the society we were. Fixing the government or the econonic system means nothing if America as a whole isn't fixed.

QFT. Glad we can agree on this, sir.

 

[BeFranklin]

My turkey feast was founded on Christian principles.

Burp.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

My turkey feast was founded on Christian principles.

Burp.

You mean the slaughter and eating of the innocent bird? lol

 

[Conservative Christian]

"I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, 'that they may be seen of men'."

--Nelly Custis
Adopted daughter of George Washington
Lived with the Washington family for 20 years at Mount Vernon, until shortly after Washington's death

Hmmmmmm. Who should we believe, a woman who lived in Washington's home for 20 years, or a gaggle of self-deluded internet atheists?


.

 

[Truth Warrior]

Hmmmmmm. Who should we believe, a woman who lived in Washington's home for 20 years, or a gaggle of self-deluded internet atheists?


.

Ask his slaves.

George Washington and Slavery
http://www.mountvernon.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/print/ss/101//cfid/25954706/cftoken/59543419

"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Hmmmmmm. Who should we believe, a woman who lived in Washington's home for 20 years, or a gaggle of self-deluded internet atheists?


.

or a condescending "Conservative Christian" who refuses to let dead arguments lie by quoting without a source when the "self-deluded internet atheists" have moved on to other, more productive things?

 

[M House]

Arguing the constitution was founded on Christian principles has always been a total load. Um sure obviously many of the founders were Christians but many just look it up were not. It's founded on the freedom of religion which last time I checked wasn't a Christian value. The founders obviously used a variety of thoughts to consider things. They applied Greek and Roman elements of government, they applied various forms of modern philosophy at the time. Arguing the constitution had the base in one sole religion, teaching, or view is just ignorance. And to make peace with Christians of course many probably considered those teachings as well when writing it. But to take credit for its views, values, and construction without considering perhaps a much greater depth of thought and principle is a shallow insult to the depth of the document.

 

[BeFranklin]

Arguing the constitution was founded on Christian principles has always been a total load. Um sure obviously many of the founders were Christians but many just look it up were not. It's founded on the freedom of religion which last time I checked wasn't a Christian value. The founders obviously used a variety of thoughts to consider things. They applied Greek and Roman elements of government, they applied various forms of modern philosophy at the time. Arguing the constitution had the base in one sole religion, teaching, or view is just ignorance. And to make peace with Christians of course many probably considered those teachings as well when writing it. But to take credit for its views, values, and construction without considering perhaps a much greater depth of thought and principle is a shallow insult to the depth of the document.

You haven't checked then. Get over your hate of Christianity, which in a nation founded by Christians is odd.

Roger Williams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Williams_(theologian))

The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution, for Cause of Conscience soon followed (London, 1644). This is his most famous work, and was the ablest statement and defense of the principle of absolute liberty of conscience that had appeared in any language. It is in the form of a dialogue between Truth and Peace, and well illustrates the vigor of his style.

 

[BeFranklin]

or a condescending "Conservative Christian" who refuses to let dead arguments lie by quoting without a source when the "self-deluded internet atheists" have moved on to other, more productive things?

The only one that has been consistently condescending here is you for the last couple of messages.

As for me, I'm perfectly happy if you move on. I enjoy talking to the other Christian patriots and trading information. I don't really need the internet atheists telling me all the things that the school and NWO has tried to indoctrinate me with all these years. If you licked that boot a long time ago, you don't need to spout it here. I'm sure we *all* have heard it before. Let something new grow here that wasn't been allowed to be talked about before. Or do you simply hate free speech, and that can't be talked about *anyplace*.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

The only one that has been consistently condescending here is you for the last couple of messages.
Let something new grow here that wasn't been allowed to be talked about before. Or do you simply hate free speech, and that can't be talked about *anyplace*.

False choice fallacy. I refuse to accept your question as legitimate.

The only one that has been consistently condescending here is you for the last couple of messages.

Ad hominem. Patently false.

 

[JK/SEA]

what do christains want in regards to this debate?

give me your bottom line.

we already have churches on every street corner..

we alrady have multiple christian cable network shows..

we already have tax breaks for these cults..

and yet we get internet christians complaining and whining about not being allowed to spew their disdain for anyone who doesn't subscribe to their mental dis- order.

is it ok to be a patriot and not subscribe to the brainwashed christian ideal?

 

[Theocrat]

No Religion in Our Nation's History

Behold! Our nation was discovered by "rational" secular humanists, and this painting proves it once and for all!

Oh, wait a minute. Something's not right here...

 

[M House]

Seriously you Christian's need a break ALOT of religions believe in god.

 

[bojo68]

I'd like to know why no law respecting religion allows for a no tax status. Seems to me that violates the constitution. Not that I'm for taxes, but if we have to have them, EVERYBODY should. So, why not remove the tax break for religion?