Focusing on Blue Republicans is a Waste of Time

What the hell does this have to do with relativism? This is about the division of labor. Please don't obfuscate the issue by introducing a philosophical argument that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.



Again, more on the principle of dispersed knowledge. You have no damn clue what I am doing with my time or how effective I am with said time. I've worked in well over a dozen campaigns & know EXACTLY what to do to win them including the little boring things. I'm a member of my local Republican Party & have signed up over 50 formerly non-Republicans as now eligible Republican voters over the last month. I have the voting list for past Republican voters in my congressional district & exhausted that extremely short list in just over a week. Why? Because I live in CHICAGO & that list is short as hell! YOUR STRATEGY WILL NOT WORK WHERE I LIVE! All politics is local, one's strategy & tactics should be tailored to fit the local political climate for maximum effectiveness.



The division of labor is bizarre & in denial of human nature? REALLY?! I find the simplistic, one size fits all approach to your strategy of centralized planning to be bizarre & in denial of human nature.



This directly contradicts your previous statement.



This seasoned activist, of 17 campaigns in 4 different parties over 14 years, could have told you in 2007 that putting stickers on urinals was a waste of time & this seasoned activist is telling you that trying to push centralized planning on a base of libertarian leaning grassroots activists is an even bigger waste of time.



Stating unequivocally that you are "simply presenting some facts about how this tactic is dead wrong" is not an attempt at debate. Your "facts" are opinions.
Yes, what I do with my time is none of your business, as is what other activists do with their time. Pay me for my time & THEN it becomes your business.

I stand corrected in my assumptions about you.

"I'm a member of my local Republican Party & have signed up over 50 formerly non-Republicans as now eligible Republican voters over the last month. I have the voting list for past Republican voters in my congressional district & exhausted that extremely short list in just over a week. Why? Because I live in CHICAGO & that list is short as hell! YOUR STRATEGY WILL NOT WORK WHERE I LIVE! All politics is local..."

100% agree!
 
really? if it was a waste of time why am i now a registered republican and supporting Ron Paul. Anyone saying recruiting blue republicans is a waste of time are useless!! ello anyone home i use to be a conservative democrat!!
 
I stand corrected in my assumptions about you.

"I'm a member of my local Republican Party & have signed up over 50 formerly non-Republicans as now eligible Republican voters over the last month. I have the voting list for past Republican voters in my congressional district & exhausted that extremely short list in just over a week. Why? Because I live in CHICAGO & that list is short as hell! YOUR STRATEGY WILL NOT WORK WHERE I LIVE! All politics is local..."

100% agree!

Thank you. I just wanted to get you to understand that the Blue Republican strategy is one more arrow in the Ron Paul activist's quiver. Especially for those of us who live in areas dominated by liberal/progressive politics & worldviews. I don't advocate that it be the only or even the main strategy for most liberty activists, & if you live in an area dominated by conservative politics I'd recommend it not even be part of your quiver or if it is it should be a very minor one. It has been however my main strategy almost by default since long before the Blue Republican phrase was coined due to the local political climate of my area. In fact I was trying to push Paul to liberals in 2007 but they were too caught up in the Obama personality cult at the time to listen. They're listening now though. There are literally 9 liberals for every 1 conservative in my locality. The Green Party is just as large & politically influential as the Republican Party in my congressional district, which is the Illinois 5th, Rahm & Blagojevich's former district.
 
I think that your probably right because getting any of getting blue republicans to the caucus' is just going to be slim to nonexistent..

However I think we have just about as good of a chance to turn them into real Ron Paul Republicans as we do hardcore Neo-Cons. A lot of leftists do actually like Ron Paul and feel Obama has let them down on a great deal of issues War, Gitmo, Drug War, Gay Rights etc.. However a scant few of some of Paul's issues.. where favorable to other republicans will make most leftists uncomfortable as well, such as abortion. (it makes me uncomfortable but.. I can see where he is coming from being a Dr.)

ANNN SO

Be choosy with this.. If in your talking to people if they are receptive to Ron Paul, you may continue talking to them.. however if they are going to vote for Obama no matter what, don't waste your time on them.. you'll never see them come through where it matters.
 
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Thank you. I just wanted to get you to understand that the Blue Republican strategy is one more arrow in the Ron Paul activist's quiver. Especially for those of us who live in areas dominated by liberal/progressive politics & worldviews. I don't advocate that it be the only or even the main strategy for most liberty activists, & if you live in an area dominated by conservative politics I'd recommend it not even be part of your quiver or if it is it should be a very minor one. It has been however my main strategy almost by default since long before the Blue Republican phrase was coined due to the local political climate of my area. In fact I was trying to push Paul to liberals in 2007 but they were too caught up in the Obama personality cult at the time to listen. They're listening now though. There are literally 9 liberals for every 1 conservative in my locality. The Green Party is just as large & politically influential as the Republican Party in my congressional district, which is the Illinois 5th, Rahm & Blagojevich's former district.


exactly , We got a 49.6% vote for a Ron Paul Republican in our county using the blue republican idea. When gop est/neo-con republicans usually get 11%;) Ron Paul 2012
 
I do think a Huckabee or Palin endorsement might help but how likely is that?
I absolutely agree with your asessment, liberals/progressives are not the path to victory, if we're gonna win it's gonna come down to winning over social conservatives in Iowa.
 
Fascinating argument. I guess we will know after SC what strategy is working and what is not. I'm an amateur so I'll not pretend to be an authority but it seems to me that Ron Paul will have to compete against a cultural conservative and a neo-con/establishment candidate. I think if the party sees him finishing 2nd or better in 2 of the 3 first states, there will be an incredible surge to demonize him in the slickest commercials ever run in a primary. Gigantic wads of money will get pushed in the pocket of the establishment candidate and the cultural conservative will be sweet talked and ne're a discouraging word will be said against her in any situation or ad. Given this scenario, Ron Paul will need every Republican he can get but I doubt very seriously that a conventional strategy will work. There has to be a significant wave of progressives to come on board. I do mean progressives because the moderate Dems and independents are less likely than progressives to embrace Paul.
On the other hand the Blue Republican Facebook page is I suspect a libertarian created page and mostly liked by life time libertarians or supporters of Paul who were converted during the last election. The strategy of trying to convert progressives to libertarians so they will vote for Ron Paul will not work. Imagine if Romney were president now and Kucinich supporters were telling libertarians come vote for our candidate and he will end the war and restore civil liberties. There's not enough bait on the hook. However, if Kucinich said that he would devote 50% of the money saved on drawing down the empire to debt reduction so that we have a net reduction in the overall size of government, libertarians would begin to at least listen. Let's then say that Kucinich offered a pledge to reduce taxes for 98 percent of the population beyond the current Bush rates. The listening then starts turning to movement. Then Kucinich says I promise that all revenue gained from increasing taxes on the top 2% will go exclusively to debt reduction. Now we have a candidate who wants to end the empire building and maintenance, restore civil liberties, lower taxes, reduce the size of government and significantly pay down our national debt. Now the Libertarian is faced with this opportunity to support a candidate who is endorsing a great deal more of the libertarian agenda than the incumbent and certain party nominee. Looking down the primary ballot she sees no competitive races involving a libertarian Republican... what is she going to do?
The man himself has got to clarify just how sweet the pot is if he is going to get the extra numbers he needs to win a nomination which will be fought in a way that makes Rove look like a dove. If you really want to know how to talk to a progressive about switching parties here's how: http://progressivesforronpaul.blogspot.com/
 
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Fascinating argument. I guess we will know after SC what strategy is working and what is not. I'm an amateur so I'll not pretend to be an authority but it seems to me that Ron Paul will have to compete against a cultural conservative and a neo-con/establishment candidate. I think if the party sees him finishing 2nd or better in 2 of the 3 first states, there will be an incredible surge to demonize him in the slickest commercials ever run in a primary. Gigantic wads of money will get pushed in the pocket of the establishment candidate and the cultural conservative will be sweet talked and ne're a discouraging word will be said against her in any situation or ad. Given this scenario, Ron Paul will need every Republican he can get but I doubt very seriously that a conventional strategy will work. There has to be a significant wave of progressives to come on board. I do mean progressives because the moderate Dems and independents are less likely than progressives to embrace Paul.
On the other hand the Blue Republican Facebook page is I suspect a libertarian created page and mostly liked by life time libertarians or supporters of Paul who were converted during the last election. The strategy of trying to convert progressives to libertarians so they will vote for Ron Paul will not work. Imagine if Romney were president now and Kucinich supporters were telling libertarians come vote for our candidate and he will end the war and restore civil liberties. There's not enough bait on the hook. However, if Kucinich said that he would devote 50% of the money saved on drawing down the empire to debt reduction so that we have a net reduction in the overall size of government, libertarians would begin to at least listen. Let's then say that Kucinich offered a pledge to reduce taxes for 98 percent of the population beyond the current Bush rates. The listening then starts turning to movement. Then Kucinich says I promise that all revenue gained from increasing taxes on the top 2% will go exclusively to debt reduction. Now we have a candidate who wants to end the empire building and maintenance, restore civil liberties, lower taxes, reduce the size of government and significantly pay down our national debt. Now the Libertarian is faced with this opportunity to support a candidate who is endorsing a great deal more of the libertarian agenda than the incumbent and certain party nominee. Looking down the primary ballot she sees no competitive races involving a libertarian Republican... what is she going to do?
The man himself has got to clarify just how sweet the pot is if he is going to get the extra numbers he needs to win a nomination which will be fought in a way that makes Rove look like a dove. If you really want to know how to talk to a progressive about switching parties here's how: http://progressivesforronpaul.blogspot.com/

Have you seen this interview? http://ronpaulrally.org/2011/07/ron...or-social-security-to-get-our-house-in-order/
 
I do mean progressives because the moderate Dems and independents are less likely than progressives to embrace Paul.

On the other hand the Blue Republican Facebook page is I suspect a libertarian created page and mostly liked by life time libertarians or supporters of Paul who were converted during the last election. The strategy of trying to convert progressives to libertarians so they will vote for Ron Paul will not work. Imagine if Romney were president now and Kucinich supporters were telling libertarians come vote for our candidate and he will end the war and restore civil liberties. There's not enough bait on the hook. However, if Kucinich said that he would devote 50% of the money saved on drawing down the empire to debt reduction so that we have a net reduction in the overall size of government, libertarians would begin to at least listen. Let's then say that Kucinich offered a pledge to reduce taxes for 98 percent of the population beyond the current Bush rates. The listening then starts turning to movement. Then Kucinich says I promise that all revenue gained from increasing taxes on the top 2% will go exclusively to debt reduction. Now we have a candidate who wants to end the empire building and maintenance, restore civil liberties, lower taxes, reduce the size of government and significantly pay down our national debt. Now the Libertarian is faced with this opportunity to support a candidate who is endorsing a great deal more of the libertarian agenda than the incumbent and certain party nominee. Looking down the primary ballot she sees no competitive races involving a libertarian Republican... what is she going to do?

Hey what's up buddy! First of all let me thank you for sticking around and staying the fight. It takes a lot of courage to keep supporting a candidacy for President under the circumstances you have. Bravo.

I do however disagree with several of your points --

Of course true liberals & not centrist hypocrites are more likely to vote Paul. Makes sense. But, Ron does get some sugar from independents in the voting booth election after election. Many "independents" are previously apathetic voters, that's Ron's specialty.

I don't personally care who started Blue Republicans, it's a great idea and a mega-valuable asset to the campaign. As far as I'm concerned, your blog, my upcoming web stuff, fb stuff for Blue Repubs...we can all work in tandem to make this happen. BR's facebook creator hangs out here so you might ask him if he's a hardcore intolerant libertarian, but I think he at least has a lot of sympathy for (true) liberal views or he'd never spend so much time engaging with so many of them.

I know what you mean about disguises, like the one guy's blog "Classical Liberal" with all the links to Cato and Reason.

I think you are mistaken that a lot of libertarians wouldn't vote for Kucinich. The issue of war is so large because it's a double or tripled-edged sword. I'm a libertarian & I see Kucinich as a true classical liberal. He would rather spend small amounts of government $ at home helping the poor than massive $ overseas killing people. That would be preferable to any libertarian who votes pragmatically & uses common sense. Many won't allow themselves to vote for any liberal democrat out of general principle. But I'm not sure it's the majority of us.

The other thing that struck me is that the hypothetical Kucinich plan you suggested is the identical Paul plan proposed in his 2012 campaign! Bring home the troops, half of the saved money shores up programs for the elderly & the unable, half of it pays down the debt. So you see Kucinich & Paul have always been proposing the same basic solution. Let's put it this way -- put Paul the classical conservative and Kucinich the classical liberal in office for 10 years as co-Presidents. The first five years would go swimmingly! Wars ended, wasteful spending stopped, entitlements shored up, drugs decriminalized, currency crisis over, economic recovery. It is only in the 2nd half of the 10 year 'term' where disagreements would flare up, over funding social programs at home. Paul would say let the volunteers help people & we'll give them grants & advantages. Kucinich might say he wants 700B a year for nationalized health care. So, yes those would be issues. BUT if the five-year (or four year) plans are by and large alike, then...*gulp* electing Paul is the same as electing Kucinich! Either one would be busy fighting off generals & corporate lawyers and slugging it out w/ the Fed on their way out for at least three years without getting to health care or food stamps as major agenda issues. And BTW, Ron has criticized cutting food stamps.

Again, great to have you around & will be in touch soon.
 
There is a way to test this. Do a random survey of registered Republicans in the first 3 states ask them these questions:
If the primary (caucus) were held today who would you vote for? (list of all candidates)
Which of the following candidates would you be most likely to vote for? (list Romney, Bachmann and Paul)
Do a survey of registered Democrats and ask them which of the current Republicans most closely reflects your political views and which of the candidates would pose the biggest threat to the Obama campaign if nominated.
 
There is a way to test this. Do a random survey of registered Republicans in the first 3 states ask them these questions:
If the primary (caucus) were held today who would you vote for? (list of all candidates)
Which of the following candidates would you be most likely to vote for? (list Romney, Bachmann and Paul)
Do a survey of registered Democrats and ask them which of the current Republicans most closely reflects your political views and which of the candidates would pose the biggest threat to the Obama campaign if nominated.

First, thanks for your thoughtful responses. *Must take into account if one is likely to vote in a Republican primary (or open). Not easy to do---only thing to test for is if they have voted in primaries in the past. I'm concerned about the motivation factor. Sure there are folks here that were converted. I just want to see our activists focusing on the most fruitful avenues. Your Kuccinich example was fascinating.
 
First, thanks for your thoughtful responses. *Must take into account if one is likely to vote in a Republican primary (or open). Not easy to do---only thing to test for is if they have voted in primaries in the past. I'm concerned about the motivation factor. Sure there are folks here that were converted. I just want to see our activists focusing on the most fruitful avenues. Your Kuccinich example was fascinating.

That's true.

But there are also states and congressional districts out there where Democrats significantly outnumber Republicans. And they don't have a contested Dem primary to worry about. Consider a district where Ds outnumber Rs 4:1. If just 5% of the Ds crossover there, they would make up 20% of the R primary vote. In some cases, simply winning districts like that will bring RP automatic RNC delegates.

He ought to win those districts. We need him to win them. We have people on the left willing to help him win them. I don't see any reason to turn away free help.

And this isn't some kind of pie-in-the sky hope for all the previous rules of politics suddenly to be broken. There are plenty of examples of crossover votes being a significant factor in primaries. 2012 is another year that they should be, given that there's no D contest, and the R's have a single serious candidate that crossover Ds would support.
 
Perhaps I am confused.

I thought the focus of Blue Republicans was to convince Anti-war average joe Democrats to support Ron because he is the only choice for peace.

OP states that Progressives will not win it for Paul. If he is right, then yes, it will fail.

But the average liberal is not Progressive, they just see themselves as socially liberal in most cases.
 
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Perhaps I am confused.

I thought the focus of Blue Republicans was to convince Anti-war average joe Democrats to support Ron because he is the only choice for peace.

OP states that Progressives will not win it for Paul. If he is right, then yes, it will fail.

But the average liberal is not Progressive, they just see themselves as socially liberal in most cases.


I would say you are correct. I also remind folks in Colorado that most hippies(are strongly independent not gov liberals wanting to feed of the gov tit).
 
I remember seeing a poll on here a while back that showed that a good chunk of the posters on this board (I believe a majority) were not Republican voters before Ron Paul '08.
 
Please watch and respond:


This was my video response to this article:
http://www.dailypaul.com/170574/only-blue-republicans-grassroots-can-save-the-ron-paul-campaign

Update, July 15th:
Not saying that the concept of Blue Republicans is a waste of time, but FOCUSING on them.
*I updated the title of this thread with the word, "mostly."

Take what I'm saying here with a grain of salt.:cool:


-rep for dissing the Thundercats. (JUST KIDDING)

On a serious note we have to sow beside all waters. If your talking "door to door" or "phone banking", sure reach likely republican voters. If your talking about your own circle? Reach everybody. I've been talking to my neighbor a lot who voted for McCain. We agree on a lot. And I think I'm getting him to see how our foreign policy under Bush was stupid. But guess who he supports? Either Bachmann or Herman Cain! He still laughs at the idea of me supporting Ron Paul. Now it's cause Ron is "just too old". :rolleyes: Contrast that with my mom who voted for Obama. (80+ y/o black woman and demographically the least likely person to vote in a republican primary). Recently I told her "Mom, you've just got to consider voting for Ron Paul. I'm not kidding around. Our country is going to hell in a hand-basket". Her response? Son I think you're right. Obama's just giving us more wars anyway. It's no different than under Bush! I know that's just anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure I'm not the only person with such an anecdote.

And for the record, I have been getting some Obama supporters to seriously consider voting in the GOP primary since a vote for Obama is both literally and figuratively a wasted vote. (It was always a wasted vote, but don't tell them that). But I would not put that on a blog. The last thing we want is for Bachmann bloggers to pick up on this and say "Ron Paul voters are just a bunch of libs trying to help Obama". And a few Obama supporters I've approached are smart enough to realize that Ron Paul actually could win and so they won't vote for him for that specific reason. ;)

But here's what we really need to do IMO. Find the GOP voters that disagree with the wars. GOP voters are now nearly split 50/50 on Afghanistan. Those who still support these wars are a lost cause IMO.
 
But I would not put that on a blog. The last thing we want is for Bachmann bloggers to pick up on this and say "Ron Paul voters are just a bunch of libs trying to help Obama".

+1

While I'm glad people are doing this, those who do need to understand that it's on them to do it independently. They shouldn't try to unite the rest of the grassroots behind it, and especially not the official campaign. That said, if they take that initiative, there are things they could do, and activists on the other side of the aisle they could make alliances with that could make them a big factor.
 
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