I read somewhere that one of the protocals in an economic collapse is total debt forgiveness. Most Americans don't exactly have many assets to worry about. If this is actually the case I'd MAKE money off of a dollar collapse. I'd have 2 cars and a house free and clear. What am I missing?
financial collapse why do we care?
- Thread starter rvkpa
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You're completely missing where that money has to come from to get you free and clear along with the moral implications that are inherit to the situation. It's easy to admire your wonderful new possessions. but one must stop to ask a few questions. Who's life savings did I destroy? Who's education did I steal? Who's not going to be able to retire because I wanted something I couldn't afford but took loans out for anyways?
In a deflationary collapse all of your positions will be repoed.
In an inflationary collapse the value of our money will go to zero and our entire economy will be in shambles. You might not be able to afford food, or even have access to it.
Also, government can raise your property taxes to whatever they want and take possession of your house, which they may do in hyperinflation.
In an inflationary collapse the value of our money will go to zero and our entire economy will be in shambles. You might not be able to afford food, or even have access to it.
Also, government can raise your property taxes to whatever they want and take possession of your house, which they may do in hyperinflation.
So that brings me to my second point. This isn't something you can prepare for. You probably all make more money than I do and have "investments" and all that, but just to have cars to go to work and a house to live in I spend almost all our money. We save like 200 bucks a month or something in a savings account. Say we bought silver with that 200 bucks for a year we'd have $2400 in silver. We're still royally screwed. How does a regular guy with like $10k in american federal reserve notes and 260k in houses and cars survive this?
Here's what I really think. I think that those bankers in NY and everywhere else have a lot of people by the balls, can pretty much dictate what happens reguardless of the "rules." and are totally happy with the way things are going. It's not good for their business to have people starving in the streets and losing their homes. They say so on the news all the time. So basically, if this system doesn't work out. They'll just "cheat" and make it work so everything is business as usual.
Here's what I really think. I think that those bankers in NY and everywhere else have a lot of people by the balls, can pretty much dictate what happens reguardless of the "rules." and are totally happy with the way things are going. It's not good for their business to have people starving in the streets and losing their homes. They say so on the news all the time. So basically, if this system doesn't work out. They'll just "cheat" and make it work so everything is business as usual.
another quick reply: Don't you think they'd suspend the property taxes? What would the gov't want with a whole bunch of houses no one can afford to buy from them? Wouldn't they want me happy and working to make them and their corporate masters more of whatever the new dollar is?
RSLudlum
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but if they just suspended property taxes where would the money come from to fund programs like public education? There's a sh*tstorm brewing bc. property values are dropping and therefore there will be a decrease in property taxes collected unless property tax rates are raised....there also has to be alot of 'cuts in spending'.
unfortunately, it seems no matter who's President (excluding RP), our taxes are gonna rise to keep the status quo funded which is not gonna help the situation.
micahnelson
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The collapse of the dollar will bring with it a new currency. if the euro survives, people will praise the fact that it is a strong currency with a foundation of more than one nation.
It will be assumed that a multinational currency should replace the dollar.
If this evolves to a one world currency then the bankers have won, this is the endgame, and your childrens children will grow up as serfs no matter where they live.
it is that serious. I don't believe these things are planned or orchestrated per se, but I do know history. The bankers are opportunist and the ones at the top see the big picture. They will tip the scale towards global fiat if they can, and the collapse of the worlds reserve currency is the best way to do that.
It will be assumed that a multinational currency should replace the dollar.
If this evolves to a one world currency then the bankers have won, this is the endgame, and your childrens children will grow up as serfs no matter where they live.
it is that serious. I don't believe these things are planned or orchestrated per se, but I do know history. The bankers are opportunist and the ones at the top see the big picture. They will tip the scale towards global fiat if they can, and the collapse of the worlds reserve currency is the best way to do that.
Acala
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multi-prong strategy
For me it is a multi-prong strategy.
If there is hyper-inflation, your debt will evaporate IF you have a job with wages that escalate with prices and IF the government doesn't intervene with a new currency and convert your debts. During hyper-inflation (until the very end) employment levels are high. But hyper-inflation eventually reduces the economy to barter (until a new currency comes along) and barter is very inefficient so the overall standard of living drops through the floor. How to prepare for hyper-inflation? Silver and gold in hand. Junk silver is very likely to become the underground currency of a post-collapse economy. With hyper-inflation you often also have price controls. Price controls lead to shortages. If there is serious inflation followed by price controls, the shelves at the store will be empty.
What if there is a deflationary collapse? You will probably lose your job, as will a significant percentage of your neighbors. Nobody will have any money. This is the Great Depression scenario. Having some FRNs in hand is useful in a deflation because the dollar will actually gain value. Since you will probably be unemployed, you will probably lose your house and car UNLESS the government steps in and stops the foreclosures. There is precedent for this. During the Great Depression, most State governments enacted laws that prevented lenders from seeking the full amount of debts from borrowers - essentially forcing the lenders to be satisfied with the collateral (house). I cite this as an example of the relief government might give consumers in the event of massive defaults.
Because politicians are so clueless, they will enact legislation that will prevent the market from making the needed correction, thus prolonging the crisis for years, perhaps decades.
Expect and prepare for crime. Perhaps gangs of criminals. Expect and prepare for the grid going down. IF you live in a dense urban area, you might want to prepare an evacuation plan. You might want to start putting together groups of neighbors for mutual defense and cooperation.
I have stockpiled some food. Of course I am well-armed. I have as much gold and silver as I can afford. I have purchased equipment I need to harvest drinking water. I am preparing to install a photovoltaic system so I can have some electricity if the grid goes down.
And I am giving thought to what skills I can offer my fellow man in exchange for other things I need. It makes me wish I had a more practical profession. Locksmith, gunsmith, electrician, carpenter, auto repair, anything that people need in daily survival. But I don't. So I am thinking about what I CAN offer.
This was a little random, but gives you some of my thoughts on survival.
For me it is a multi-prong strategy.
If there is hyper-inflation, your debt will evaporate IF you have a job with wages that escalate with prices and IF the government doesn't intervene with a new currency and convert your debts. During hyper-inflation (until the very end) employment levels are high. But hyper-inflation eventually reduces the economy to barter (until a new currency comes along) and barter is very inefficient so the overall standard of living drops through the floor. How to prepare for hyper-inflation? Silver and gold in hand. Junk silver is very likely to become the underground currency of a post-collapse economy. With hyper-inflation you often also have price controls. Price controls lead to shortages. If there is serious inflation followed by price controls, the shelves at the store will be empty.
What if there is a deflationary collapse? You will probably lose your job, as will a significant percentage of your neighbors. Nobody will have any money. This is the Great Depression scenario. Having some FRNs in hand is useful in a deflation because the dollar will actually gain value. Since you will probably be unemployed, you will probably lose your house and car UNLESS the government steps in and stops the foreclosures. There is precedent for this. During the Great Depression, most State governments enacted laws that prevented lenders from seeking the full amount of debts from borrowers - essentially forcing the lenders to be satisfied with the collateral (house). I cite this as an example of the relief government might give consumers in the event of massive defaults.
Because politicians are so clueless, they will enact legislation that will prevent the market from making the needed correction, thus prolonging the crisis for years, perhaps decades.
Expect and prepare for crime. Perhaps gangs of criminals. Expect and prepare for the grid going down. IF you live in a dense urban area, you might want to prepare an evacuation plan. You might want to start putting together groups of neighbors for mutual defense and cooperation.
I have stockpiled some food. Of course I am well-armed. I have as much gold and silver as I can afford. I have purchased equipment I need to harvest drinking water. I am preparing to install a photovoltaic system so I can have some electricity if the grid goes down.
And I am giving thought to what skills I can offer my fellow man in exchange for other things I need. It makes me wish I had a more practical profession. Locksmith, gunsmith, electrician, carpenter, auto repair, anything that people need in daily survival. But I don't. So I am thinking about what I CAN offer.
This was a little random, but gives you some of my thoughts on survival.
NoMoreApathy
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well SHIT, if Americans all realized it THAT way, we probably wouldn't be on the brink of collapse, huh?
Acala
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Oh . . .
As for property tax, I suspect that government at all levels is going to do whatever it can to survive and to survive they need income. I suspect that taxation will continue apace. But revenues will fall anyway. And if things get bad enough, there will not be enough manpower to pursue all the tax liens.
I think that the answer to keep government revenues up will be inflation. This is one of the reasons I am betting on hyper-inflation. Government is going to have to find a way to continue to pay all of its millions of employees. But revenue is going to drop at every level no matter what they do with taxation. I think the federal government will intercede with cash - created out of nothing, of course.
As for property tax, I suspect that government at all levels is going to do whatever it can to survive and to survive they need income. I suspect that taxation will continue apace. But revenues will fall anyway. And if things get bad enough, there will not be enough manpower to pursue all the tax liens.
I think that the answer to keep government revenues up will be inflation. This is one of the reasons I am betting on hyper-inflation. Government is going to have to find a way to continue to pay all of its millions of employees. But revenue is going to drop at every level no matter what they do with taxation. I think the federal government will intercede with cash - created out of nothing, of course.
NoMoreApathy
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I have to say, I really don't think the government is going to let it turn into chaos in this country. Especially if they want to instil a new currency. It doesn't help their efforts one bit if the entire lifeblood of the economy (the middle class) is just wiped away and left for dead.
I realize that this situation appears to mirror the eventual plights of many other empires throughout history, but those empires existed in times that aren't as sophisticated as today.
The world economy is global now, it's not locally centralized as it was with past empires.
I just don't see a collapse of the US economy, and the US itself, to be as "inevitable" as it may have been for, say, the Romans.
Prove me wrong.
I realize that this situation appears to mirror the eventual plights of many other empires throughout history, but those empires existed in times that aren't as sophisticated as today.
The world economy is global now, it's not locally centralized as it was with past empires.
I just don't see a collapse of the US economy, and the US itself, to be as "inevitable" as it may have been for, say, the Romans.
Prove me wrong.
Truth Warrior
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Secrets of the Federal Reserve
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics ...Reserve/secrets_of_the_federal_reserve_TC.htm
"For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." - David Rockefeller, "Memoirs" autobiography (2002, Random House publishers), page 405
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money ." -- Sir Josiah Stamp
"The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks." -- Lord Acton
"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -- Henry Ford
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation then by deflation, the banks and the corporations will grow up around them, will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." - Thomas Jefferson
"I wish it were possible to obtain a single amendment to our constitution - taking from the federal government their power of borrowing." - Thomas Jefferson
"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild
Federal Reserve ......... 95 years ..... four American generations ..... and counting
Abolish the Federal Reserve!
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics ...Reserve/secrets_of_the_federal_reserve_TC.htm
"For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." - David Rockefeller, "Memoirs" autobiography (2002, Random House publishers), page 405
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money ." -- Sir Josiah Stamp
"The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks." -- Lord Acton
"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -- Henry Ford
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation then by deflation, the banks and the corporations will grow up around them, will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." - Thomas Jefferson
"I wish it were possible to obtain a single amendment to our constitution - taking from the federal government their power of borrowing." - Thomas Jefferson
"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws." -- Mayer Amschel Rothschild
Federal Reserve ......... 95 years ..... four American generations ..... and counting
Abolish the Federal Reserve!
Sandra
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Morals plays heavily on others opinion of you. Survivalists that talk "stockpiles" and separatists crap will get shot and have their stuff plundered. Those that work for community suvival will live and faire better. Community survival was the only way people made it during the depression, that why there was supply, support, and protection.
youngbuck
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That is something I've been wondering about.
What are the various possibilities that might happen to people with mortgages, or car payments, or credit card debt in the event of crazy hyperinflation?
Acala
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Reply to No more apathy
No More Apathy,
Your view depends on the idea that the government CAN stop the descent into chaos. I don't believe they can. At some point, the tools of monetary manipulation, taxation, borrowing, and spending all fail because all of the real wealth has been destroyed or moved out of the system. Once the currency is fully devalued, printing money is useless. Once the currency is useless, taxation is useless. Once the money has no value, there is nothing for government to spend. And once there is no source of revenue for the government, it can no longer borrow. Government is powerful, but not powerful enough to defy the laws of economics. After the crack up, all that is left to government is force. If the government tries to stop the descent into chaos it will have to be at gunpoint.
The better option is really what Sandra suggests. People will heal their communities, reviving the economy on a local level, without banks or government schemes. If we are lucky!
No More Apathy,
Your view depends on the idea that the government CAN stop the descent into chaos. I don't believe they can. At some point, the tools of monetary manipulation, taxation, borrowing, and spending all fail because all of the real wealth has been destroyed or moved out of the system. Once the currency is fully devalued, printing money is useless. Once the currency is useless, taxation is useless. Once the money has no value, there is nothing for government to spend. And once there is no source of revenue for the government, it can no longer borrow. Government is powerful, but not powerful enough to defy the laws of economics. After the crack up, all that is left to government is force. If the government tries to stop the descent into chaos it will have to be at gunpoint.
The better option is really what Sandra suggests. People will heal their communities, reviving the economy on a local level, without banks or government schemes. If we are lucky!
In hyper-inflation, you probably would own your cars and house almost free and clear, assuming that you pay fixed rates. However, the overall effects on the economy would not outweigh these benefits. Mass increases in crime, food shortages, unemployment, etc. Plus the fact that your parents/older friends would have no more life savings.
NoMoreApathy
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Well, then the one;s in control are either too stupid to realize their errors, or they're letting it happen. Those are the only 2 possible explanations.
Since I doubt that all those educated minds could really be that clueless, I'd side with "letting it happen".
Makes you wonder just how many OTHER terrible things they've LET HAPPEN.
I would like to have faith in our communities, that we will heal this ourselves and move beyond needing our government to cradle us, but I doubt it.
There will be such a small minority of people who will be attempting to heal the community. The rest of the majority of the masses will be lining up with their soup bowls asking for their share.
This is where Natural Selection will come into play. But here's what I don't quite get yet. If this really is all PLANNED, how does the government plan on continuing on with their NAU, SPP, whatever, without the support of the backbone of the country, the middle class?
Either of the depression scenarios sounds like lights out for the middle class. How will this nation, or in fact, this WORLD, operate without the middle class?
I'm PROUD to be a middle class, blue collar worker who knows how to turn a fucking wrench, fix a fucking leak, replace a toilet, paint a house, fix a broken light, etc. How will the world survive without people like me?
banjojambo9
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where do you think the money came from ? the fed who owns the printing press pulled it out of thin air and charged interest for the ink on a on a piece of worthless paper wake up!
There's a third possibility: that it simply proceeds naturally this way. Freedom is not a natural thing, since it involves spontaneous social order. Anyone familiar with entropy knows that spontaneous order implies something doing the ordering...humanity is not independent of such laws.
500 politicians may all be quite intelligent, but they are not all experts in economics, and they are all very interested in keeping their jobs. Since their job requires votes, they must pander to keep their jobs (in most cases today). Pandering by 500 individual politicians will inevitably lead to dislocations in the economy and to a "slippery slope" state of affairs.
Slippery slope, to me, doesn't imply conspiracy or intent, but rather a natural progression. Laws beget lawyers, who beget more laws when they become politicians. It's very much like a cancer.
If we're to keep freedom, we must forever be vigilant and responsible stewards of it.
Laziness and apathy are indeed very deadly sins, as we are all beginning to see.
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