Fair Tax Infiltrators at Tea Parties? Need Advice

[libertygrl]

Hey guys,

I recently signed up with a local Tea Party protest group in my area. I am now on their mailing list that goes out to all their members. A while back I heard that these tea parties might be infiltrated by backers of the Fair Tax Plan -( http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_us)

I just received my first email and my local group already sent me Fair Tax information and the merits of having it. I admit that I get confused when it comes to this plan and economics as a whole. I do however understand how the Fed is the direct culprit of all our troubles and that we were never meant to be taxed on the fruit of our labor, as Dr. Paul has stated.

Here's the situation. I now have an opportunity to reply back to this email list and educate the rest of these people on why they should be wary of Fair Tax. I know many of them are probably just regular folks who are ignorant about the Fed and our Constitution. And I'm not quite up to par in explaining the specifics of why the Fair Tax plan isn't good myself, or how to steer them in supporting an audit of the Fed and the repeal of the federal income tax. I need to do this in a way where it doesn't appear that I am now taking over their platform and infiltrating their party! That's not my intention anyway. I just want to help open the eyes of my fellow Americans.

I am open to any and all suggestions. What can I write that would be specific yet concise, and provide them with links to resources that they can check out for themselves so they can make a more informed decision on what to support. I found one link to a great article by Devy Kidd from a few years back warning people to be aware of alternative taxing schemes. Would appreciate any advice.

By the way, is their a specifc forum where C4L supporters are gathering to brainstorm the best strategies when attending these tea parties? Thanks!

 

[klamath]

If we have to have a tax I would prefer the fair tax to the income tax. The trouble is as RP has said, the congress would probably pass the fair tax but leave the income tax as well.

I have been bitten by this before. Years ago my county buried its own landfills and it could be supported by general revenues. The the state forced them to close the dumps and ship the trash out to a state approved landfill. The county board proposed that an assessment fee be attached to every residence in the county to pay for this. A group of us felt it was best to just have a gate fee so that people like my family who recycled nearly everthing were not paying for those that bought and threw away tonns of materal. We were voted down because the logic went that people would just start throwing the trash along the road if they had to pay at the gate. So the homeowner started paying 35$ a year extra on our property taxes. Once the county found that the tax was profitable and you couldn't have enough of a good thing, complained the dump was going broke and had the suppervisers raise the rates to 100$ dollars a year. That passed so shortly there after they complained it still wasn't paying for its self so they had to sups pass a gate fee. So the moral of the story is we ended up with both.

 

[MRoCkEd]

The Only "Fair Tax" is
NO TAX AT ALL​

End the IRS
Replace it with
NOTHING​

 

[Dripping Rain]

i agree with mrocked's bolded statement above but i heard Ron Paul say the fairtax would be a step in the right direction.

 

[ArchPaul]

While no tax on income is best, as it punishes productivity. I believe the fair tax
is the best of all options. Basically if you want to play your gonna pay. And the frugal, savers
get to keep their money. It gets the drug dealers buying their rims, the prostitutes buying their wares, the rich buying their porshes, yatchs etc. A flat tax still taxes income. which the drug dealers don't have and the rich skirt around by creating a corporation so they can get around it with loopholes.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't get caught up in the Fair Tax vs. whatever debate. Because all you'll be seen as is a naysayer.

Personally, I would take the tack of reminding them that it isn't HOW we pay our taxes, that is of the utmost importance, but the fact that the SPENDING by our dear 'ol bloated government needs to be drastically reduced. And one way to do that is to start reducing the size and scope of our government back to its constitutional level. No twiddling around the edges by reducing taxes. WHOLE DEPARTMENTS need to go!!! For example, why do we need a Department of Education? Why are we shoveling money hand over fist to the IMF, the World Bank and every other internationalist POS under the sun?

 

[Objectivist]

I have a question about Tea Parties, seeing that I'll be attending my first on the 15th.
Can I bring my Pitchfork?

 

[ArchPaul]

I have a question about Tea Parties, seeing that I'll be attending my first on the 15th.
Can I bring my Pitchfork?

If I can bring my torch!

 

[Objectivist]

If I can bring my torch!

That's a serious question, can I?

 

[JK/SEA]

That's a serious question, can I?

You might get that answer from the first cop you meet.

stay cool, bring a nice sign and goodluck.

Personally, i think protests are a waste of time now. Nothing will change.

 

[madmon]

At least with a sales tax you know exactly where you stand the minute you make a transaction. Not so with the income tax, a slave labor tax essentially. You really don't own anything for sure the way it is now. It's all subject to IRS approval. Small business people know this. It's an outrageous situation, and a national sales tax is a much better, albeit still with problems, reasonable solution.

 

[angelatc]

At least with a sales tax you know exactly where you stand the minute you make a transaction. Not so with the income tax, a slave labor tax essentially. You really don't own anything for sure the way it is now. It's all subject to IRS approval. Small business people know this. It's an outrageous situation, and a national sales tax is a much better, albeit still with problems, reasonable solution.

Not to mention that Congress has a habit of changing the tax rate after you've already started earning the money.

 

[libertygrl]

So the consensus thus far is that the Fair Tax plan is sort of the "lesser of two evils?" Is there a link to any news article or interview where Ron Paul said he's ok with the Fair Tax? I'm not doubting your word Dripping Rain, I am just curious about what he actually said.

Anyway, I just came across a very interesting post from another outside forum about the Fair Tax:

The Fair Tax, as documented by its legislative text (H.R.25 -http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.25):, would not only enlarge the iron fist of our federal government’s taxing powers if adopted, it would also subjugate the thoughtful checks and balances of our Constitution's original tax plan, just as current federal taxation now does!

Nowhere in the text of H.R.25 is language to remove Congress's authority to lay and collect “excise taxes” calculated from profits and gains. For those not aware, an excise tax may be laid upon a “privilege” or a specific occupation and the amount of tax to be paid may be “calculated” from profits and gains realized under the privilege or occupation which the excise tax has been laid upon. Why is this important for tea party participants to fully understand? Repealing “income taxes” and the 16th Amendment, which is the sales pitch made by ringleaders of the FT, does not propose to end “excise taxes” which may be “calculated” from profits and gains. This is a clever loophole contained in the language of the FT and would keep alive the very kind of tax freedom loving Americans now complain of, while an across the board 23 percent tax upon the sale of consumer items and services rendered would be established if the FT is adopted.

Note that the SCOTUS, before the 16th Amendment was adopted upheld the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909 which was an excise tax laid upon the “privilege” of being a corporation, and the amount of tax to be paid under it was calculated from profits and gains realized under corporate charters ( See Flint vs. Stone Tracy). So, while corporate “income taxes” are proposed to be repealed under the FT, the power to lay a Corporate “excise tax” as was done in 1909 is not intended to repealed under the FT, and would allow Congress, in spite of the FT, to lay an “excise tax” on small businesses across the nation and calculate the amount of tax to be paid from profits and gains realized by these businesses. This in effect keeps alive the very kind of tax which unsuspecting fair tax supporters think would end under the FT.

It is interesting to note that H.R. 25 would actually create an Excise Tax Bureau- … to administer those excise taxes not administered by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms! And, this “Excise Tax Bureau” would be in addition to the a Sales Tax Bureau- - - which is another federal taxing agency proposed to be created under the alleged FT!

So, how would the FT affect America’s Mary and Joe Sixpack, our every day folks? Well, Mary and Joe have two children and find it necessary to earn extra money to pay their bills. Mary baby sits for neighbors in the community and cleans homes on week ends to raise extra money while Joe, who works for a pluming company as a full-time job, also provides the same plumbing service on his own time to people living in his community. Surprise! Under the FT which promises to end the misery of income taxation, Mary and Joe would continue to experience the same burdens they now suffer under “income taxation”--- record keeping, audits, and filing sales tax returns under the penalty of perjury!

The startling truth is, those who sell a taxable service or property under the FT, such as Mary and Joe mentioned above, will have to collect and send sales tax receipts to the federal government and keep any records Congress may decide are needed, and this would be in addition to Mary and Joe having to register with government as a “seller” of a taxable property or service in order to sell the property they have in their labor, which is what is really being taxed under the alleged FT.

Although the so called income tax may be repealed under the FT and the IRS closed down, its employees would merely be moved to other federal agencies and the same miseries of income taxation would still be experienced by small business owners, our nation’s large corporations, and even felt by Mary and Joe Sixpack who seem to have fallen for the feel good rhetoric dished out by the ringleaders of the alleged FT.

And so, the question remains, what is it that America’s freedom loving people ought to be promoting at every tea party? I would say a return to our nation’s first principles, and that would include a return to our Constitution’s original tax plan which can be accomplished by adding the following words to our federal Constitution:


The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

 

[madmon]

Not to mention that Congress has a habit of changing the tax rate after you've already started earning the money.

Transparency is a REALLY important issue. I would say it's one of the things that has lead to this recent economic collapse. We need to know absolutely where we stand or else we can't make decisions. Like so many policies of the federal government it's a tremendous disincentive to work hard.


Probability of Fairtax passing: Reasonable. I would say that if Republicans could retake Congress it would probably pass. It would also have a good chance of passing if a non-neocon Republican president were elected, especially Huckabee. Ron Paul would be better, I understand, but just about any Republican president candidate would need to have an eliminate the IRS stance if you ask me.

Probability of eliminating the IRS and replacing it with nothing: ZERO!!!! Even if RP were elected, he'd still have to deal with a more traditional Congress.

I choose to support initiatives that have a chance of happening. This is real, folks. It's not something like the microchip that may happen tomorrow. It's not a wild conspiracy theory. The current system is an abomination and it's devastating to our economy and our people right now, here, today. It needs to change and the fairtax is a realistic path towards that change.

 

[Josh_LA]

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't get caught up in the Fair Tax vs. whatever debate. Because all you'll be seen as is a naysayer.

Personally, I would take the tack of reminding them that it isn't HOW we pay our taxes, that is of the utmost importance, but the fact that the SPENDING by our dear 'ol bloated government needs to be drastically reduced. And one way to do that is to start reducing the size and scope of our government back to its constitutional level. No twiddling around the edges by reducing taxes. WHOLE DEPARTMENTS need to go!!! For example, why do we need a Department of Education? Why are we shoveling money hand over fist to the IMF, the World Bank and every other internationalist POS under the sun?

i agree, emphasize common ground.

but I think the poster (and others) are concerned about, what if we don't "do it right", won't it just fall into the wrong hands and possibly get worse? (like how Americans think Obama will unF America)

 

[jkm1864]

I personally like the fair tax compared to what We have now. This tax is the only constitutional alternative that We have right now. The best part everyone would pay their fair share and if We don't approve of what washington is doing We just don't spend money. I compared it and to be honest WE would pay alot less taxes in the long run. I pay about 3700 a month if I spend a whole month offshore. Now if You compare it to the fair tax I would have to spend 11k at the register which We all know I would not spend that much. Now that would be at a 23% federal sales tax and a 10% state tax. The best part is it gets rid of the corporate taxes and social security taxes which will eventually lead to higher pay. Now You can argue all You want but its 100% better than this bullshit that We have now. So let these people speak because if they successful it will make every hard working americans life a lot better in the long run. Oh another thing the fair tax circumvents the FED and the money goes strait to congress every month.

 

[Met Income]

With a fair tax, a government has even MORE of an incentive to push a consumption-based economy.

 

[ronpaulhawaii]

I think I am going to go at it with a response along the lines of, "Yes, the FairTax is an interesting proposal, and is certainly better than what we have now, but I think a more pressing problem is bloat in our central government. Our entire monetary system needs a complete overhaul and a return to value based money, (not the faith based stuff we carry in our pockets today.) But, if we got the bloat under control, it would be much less complicated to figure out how to fund central gov't, without ripping ourselves off!"

or sumptin lidat...

 

[Danke]

So the consensus thus far is that the Fair Tax plan is sort of the "lesser of two evils?" Is there a link to any news article or interview where Ron Paul said he's ok with the Fair Tax? I'm not doubting your word Dripping Rain, I am just curious about what he actually said.

Anyway, I just came across a very interesting post from another outside forum about the Fair Tax:

The Fair Tax, as documented by its legislative text (H.R.25 -http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.25):, would not only enlarge the iron fist of our federal government’s taxing powers if adopted, it would also subjugate the thoughtful checks and balances of our Constitution's original tax plan, just as current federal taxation now does!

Nowhere in the text of H.R.25 is language to remove Congress's authority to lay and collect “excise taxes” calculated from profits and gains. For those not aware, an excise tax may be laid upon a “privilege” or a specific occupation and the amount of tax to be paid may be “calculated” from profits and gains realized under the privilege or occupation which the excise tax has been laid upon. Why is this important for tea party participants to fully understand? Repealing “income taxes” and the 16th Amendment, which is the sales pitch made by ringleaders of the FT, does not propose to end “excise taxes” which may be “calculated” from profits and gains. This is a clever loophole contained in the language of the FT and would keep alive the very kind of tax freedom loving Americans now complain of, while an across the board 23 percent tax upon the sale of consumer items and services rendered would be established if the FT is adopted.

Note that the SCOTUS, before the 16th Amendment was adopted upheld the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909 which was an excise tax laid upon the “privilege” of being a corporation, and the amount of tax to be paid under it was calculated from profits and gains realized under corporate charters ( See Flint vs. Stone Tracy). So, while corporate “income taxes” are proposed to be repealed under the FT, the power to lay a Corporate “excise tax” as was done in 1909 is not intended to repealed under the FT, and would allow Congress, in spite of the FT, to lay an “excise tax” on small businesses across the nation and calculate the amount of tax to be paid from profits and gains realized by these businesses. This in effect keeps alive the very kind of tax which unsuspecting fair tax supporters think would end under the FT.

It is interesting to note that H.R. 25 would actually create an Excise Tax Bureau- … to administer those excise taxes not administered by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms! And, this “Excise Tax Bureau” would be in addition to the a Sales Tax Bureau- - - which is another federal taxing agency proposed to be created under the alleged FT!

So, how would the FT affect America’s Mary and Joe Sixpack, our every day folks? Well, Mary and Joe have two children and find it necessary to earn extra money to pay their bills. Mary baby sits for neighbors in the community and cleans homes on week ends to raise extra money while Joe, who works for a pluming company as a full-time job, also provides the same plumbing service on his own time to people living in his community. Surprise! Under the FT which promises to end the misery of income taxation, Mary and Joe would continue to experience the same burdens they now suffer under “income taxation”--- record keeping, audits, and filing sales tax returns under the penalty of perjury!

The startling truth is, those who sell a taxable service or property under the FT, such as Mary and Joe mentioned above, will have to collect and send sales tax receipts to the federal government and keep any records Congress may decide are needed, and this would be in addition to Mary and Joe having to register with government as a “seller” of a taxable property or service in order to sell the property they have in their labor, which is what is really being taxed under the alleged FT.

Although the so called income tax may be repealed under the FT and the IRS closed down, its employees would merely be moved to other federal agencies and the same miseries of income taxation would still be experienced by small business owners, our nation’s large corporations, and even felt by Mary and Joe Sixpack who seem to have fallen for the feel good rhetoric dished out by the ringleaders of the alleged FT.

And so, the question remains, what is it that America’s freedom loving people ought to be promoting at every tea party? I would say a return to our nation’s first principles, and that would include a return to our Constitution’s original tax plan which can be accomplished by adding the following words to our federal Constitution:


The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

This post keeps cropping up.

I have asked about the "or any other lawfully realized money" not negating taxation, but have not received an answer.

That phrase needs to be cleaned up and much more specific.

Yes, the income tax is a "privilege" tax. Only those activities that have a federal priviledge. They can't just tax any occupation. And it isn't just profits or gains, wages can be taxed in those privileged occupations with a federal connection (and State by mutual agreements).

Better angle than trying to change the taxing powers, is to educate people on the existing powers. Once they have a grasp on that, they will realize they don't owe any income taxes.

 

[evilfunnystuff]

I think I am going to go at it with a response along the lines of, "Yes, the FairTax is an interesting proposal, and is certainly better than what we have now, but I think a more pressing problem is bloat in our central government. Our entire monetary system needs a complete overhaul and a return to value based money, (not the faith based stuff we carry in our pockets today.) But, if we got the bloat under control, it would be much less complicated to figure out how to fund central gov't, without ripping ourselves off!"

or sumptin lidat...

in my best family feud voice

good answer good answer