Evolution just doesn't make sense

Whats interesting is according to this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_evolution ,it took 2.6 billion years to go from a single cell organisms too the first multi celled organism,which according to one site i read it takes some single cell bacteria 20 minutes to reproduce,So reproducing every 20 minutes it still took 2.6 billion years for the first multi celled organism.Now assuming theres billions and billions of reproductions happening every 20 minutes thats a unfathomable number of times for a mutation too become a multi celled organism by chance.

Yet i am to believe that even though it took that many changes to go from a single celled organism to the first multi celled one,that in the last 1 billion years ,life went from the basic multi celled creature to humans?Even though its one third the time span and the reproduction rate is now years instead of minutes.So the number of times for possible change to even be able to happen is greatly reduced, yet the complexity has increased by a unfathomable amount from basic multi celled creatures to humans.At the rate it took just to make the leap from single cell to multi celled,the complexity of a human should have taken trillions and trillions of years if left only too chance.

Sorry that takes some faith there.

"I don't understand evolution and have questions about how it's said to have worked. Therefore I'll decide that it's wrong. I don't want to bother actually thinking about anything or investigate any evidence."

Look, in the "standard theory" there was a hot goo covering the Earth 4 billion years ago. There were some organic chemicals, and possibly some amino acids and more complex molecules.

These were most likely just randomly strewn about the surface, left to bump into each other as they floated around the physical system. There was no motive force for life, there was no mechanism for reproduction or metabolization.

Slowly, certain molecules came together, by chance, by divine intervention, or for some other serendipitous reason, that were able to chemically react with other molecules in their vicinity to create more of the original molecules. These molecules eventually found/fostered lipid shells, protein chains, and enzymes that helped the molecule reproduce more reliably and more fruitfully.

That only had to happen ONCE on the whole planet for the gears of complex life to take hold and rapidly develop different organisms.

It's exponential in the level of complexity, it just needed 2 billion years for the first few steps to happen by chance. From there each advance begat multiple more advances in less and less time, until a new homeostasis is developed in the ecosystem. Then there's a disruption and a new evolutionary boom. rinse. repeat.
 
And maybe some supernatural force created life 6000 years ago and threw a bunch of fossils in the ground to test our faith.

I don't know a single christian who believes that God just threw some fossils in the ground to test our faith (not saying they don't exist but I've personally never encountered any and I would oppose that stance). I believe all of those creatures once roamed the Earth at some point. I have no problem at all with believing in that and the Bible.

Could there be a "bigfoot" like creature out there somewhere? I have no problem believing in it as a possibility, I would say its very unlikely but we haven't searched every square foot of wilderness for it. They find new species of mammals every once in a while so who knows. I wouldn't bet on any being found though. But I won't say "bigfoot doesn't exist" 100%.
 
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I don't know a single christian who believes that God just threw some fossils in the ground to test our faith (not saying they don't exist but I've personally never encountered any and I would oppose that stance). I believe all of those creatures once roamed the Earth at some point. I have no problem at all with believing in that and the Bible.

I got the feeling from some people in this thread that this was their view by the way they treated fossil evidence in their debating.
 
Creationist Evidence

I got the feeling from some people in this thread that this was their view by the way they treated fossil evidence in their debating.

Fossils are another evidence that points to the truth of Biblical Creationism, insofar as showing us that there was a global flood which God used to destroy the world by water, except for eight people. Creationists believe in evidences, and we don't have to hide behind a "God of the gaps" notion in order to deal with the things in nature that we don't understand.
 
Proof of WHAT?

Assuming you are asking for a proof of "an ant could do such an "evolution" to a non-sexually compatible "eleph-ANT"" - what evidence would you require to prove such a statement?

A "proof" is technically only valid in the "ideal" sciences like mathematics and logic; subjects that are reducible to ideal forms that are only symbolic of the observable world. I can prove that the sum of the first N cubes is the square of the sum of the first N numbers. I can't "prove" anything from physics or biology objectively. I can only provide compelling evidence that a hypothesis is generally acceptable
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Hypotheses can be proven in the hard sciences (mathematics, chemistry, etc). The "soft sciences" (anthropology, sociology, etc)-not so much.
 
Fossils are another evidence that points to the truth of Biblical Creationism, insofar as showing us that there was a global flood which God used to destroy the world by water, except for eight people. Creationists believe in evidences, and we don't have to hide behind a "God of the gaps" notion in order to deal with the things in nature that we don't understand.

Wait, wait, wait, wait...you actually believe in a literal, global flood?
 
Wait, wait, wait, wait...you actually believe in a literal, global flood?

Genesis makes no sense to me without believing in some type of literal global flood, also Jesus spoke of it as a real event.

I don't see how someone can claim they are a Christian and believe in the Bible and not believe there was some type of literal global flood in history at some point.
 
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Genesis makes no sense to me without believing in some type of literal global flood,...
I don't see how someone can claim they are a Christian and believe in the Bible and not believe there was some type of literal global flood in history at some point.

Even if you're not a Christian it's difficult to not accept that these have happened. Maybe not a real life and genuine "global flood" every time but close enough to assume it was a washout. You know?
 
Ah...so there we go. We get to the root of your apostacy. You need to go to the Did The Bible Misquote Jesus thread, listen to the videos, and respond to the arguments. Lets get to the root of your unbelief.

Apostacy? Root of my unbelief?

You take yourself way too seriously, dude. All you do in every thread is lord over everyone with this smug, holier-than-thou pseudo-intellectualism that could have only derived itself from not being hugged enough as a child, an inferiority complex, a pathological need to hear yourself talk, or some combination of the three. You rip on everyone's religion and whenever anybody calls you out on your bullshit you hide behind tl;dr essays or your own inane ramblings about predestination, original sin, and eternal damnation. You're really big on that last one. It's like your personal fetish to tell everyone they're going to Hell; you act like you care, but you really don't because your own belief system denies free will and makes any discussion with you the intellectual equivalent of banging your head against a wall while you shoot yourself over and over again. You should have been banned a long time ago, AquaBuddah2010, for violating this board's ToA. You take every discussion about theology and devolve it into a one-man circlejerk with same lines we've heard before. It's getting old. Peace.
 
Genesis makes no sense to me without believing in some type of literal global flood, also Jesus spoke of it as a real event.

I don't see how someone can claim they are a Christian and believe in the Bible and not believe there was some type of literal global flood in history at some point.

No true Scotsman fallacy, right here, folks.

Noah managed to gather life from every part of the world (including Antarctica and the New World [which wouldn't be discovered for another 3,000 years]). He managed to culture bacteria in giant industrial incubators deep in the bowels of the arc despite having absolutely zero knowledge of microbiology or even the existence of microorganisms (which wouldn't be discovered until the 17th Century). He was ever-so-thougtful to keep a stock of smallpox, influenza, cholera, tuberculosis, plague, anthrax, malaria, schistosomes, tetanus, botulism, rabies, yellow fever, dengue, trypanosomes, leishmania, mosquitos, ticks, fleas, rats, flies...you know, I think I have made my point.
 
Hypotheses can be proven in the hard sciences (mathematics, chemistry, etc). The "soft sciences" (anthropology, sociology, etc)-not so much.

There's two different kinds of chemistry, though - the study of the ideal model of molecules, and the study of actual molecules.

You can create irrefutable proofs starting from the axioms of the models, but you can only hypothesize that these proofs will align with reality.

Quantum effects can produce surprising results in chemistry that would not follow the models.

Also, the "soft sciences" can be reduced to ideal axioms that can lead to "hard" proofs: the entire school of Austrian economics is based on such proofs.
 
"I don't understand evolution and have questions about how it's said to have worked. Therefore I'll decide that it's wrong. I don't want to bother actually thinking about anything or investigate any evidence."

Look, in the "standard theory" there was a hot goo covering the Earth 4 billion years ago. There were some organic chemicals, and possibly some amino acids and more complex molecules.

These were most likely just randomly strewn about the surface, left to bump into each other as they floated around the physical system. There was no motive force for life, there was no mechanism for reproduction or metabolization.

Slowly, certain molecules came together, by chance, by divine intervention, or for some other serendipitous reason, that were able to chemically react with other molecules in their vicinity to create more of the original molecules. These molecules eventually found/fostered lipid shells, protein chains, and enzymes that helped the molecule reproduce more reliably and more fruitfully.

That only had to happen ONCE on the whole planet for the gears of complex life to take hold and rapidly develop different organisms.

It's exponential in the level of complexity, it just needed 2 billion years for the first few steps to happen by chance. From there each advance begat multiple more advances in less and less time, until a new homeostasis is developed in the ecosystem. Then there's a disruption and a new evolutionary boom. rinse. repeat.

my observation was about after the creation of life,which supposedly only took 1 billion years.So the event to spark life ill give you is a giant first step,but i was talking about after single cell organisms had already formed and already learned how to replicate itself.It only took 1 billion for life to begin,but 2.6 billion to go from 1 cell to the first basic multi celled and then only 1 billion to go from a basic multi celled to the human beings.Since this is all left too chance and where not talking about the spark of life but the progression of more complicated life.

Is not the advancement from a basic multi celled creature to humans a much more giant leap in complexity than from a 1 cell creatures to the first multi celled?

also keep in mind the number of times for chance to create humans is diminished by first 1/3 of the time span it took and diminished by the length in between the creation of offspring which leads to change,going from minutes to years,therefore going by your model because there can be no intelligent design but only chance,the transition from a single cell to the first multi celled vs the transition from a basic multi celled to humans just doesnt seem to correlate logically in the time difference each supposedly took
 
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Evolution 101: What do you get when a Elephant mates with a Rhino? Elephino!

(thats " 'El if I know", or "hell if I know"... yeah not so funny if I have to explain it)
 
No true Scotsman fallacy, right here, folks.

Noah managed to gather life from every part of the world (including Antarctica and the New World [which wouldn't be discovered for another 3,000 years]). He managed to culture bacteria in giant industrial incubators deep in the bowels of the arc despite having absolutely zero knowledge of microbiology or even the existence of microorganisms (which wouldn't be discovered until the 17th Century). He was ever-so-thougtful to keep a stock of smallpox, influenza, cholera, tuberculosis, plague, anthrax, malaria, schistosomes, tetanus, botulism, rabies, yellow fever, dengue, trypanosomes, leishmania, mosquitos, ticks, fleas, rats, flies...you know, I think I have made my point.

It's not a fallacy, I didn't say you can't be a Christian, I just said I don't understand how one could be one without believing it.

I believe it was a miraculous event but Noah only had to take one of every kind of animal and not species. So only one kind of wolf/dog, one kind of bear, etc

The rest of the species we see today "evolved" from those different kinds that survived.

As for all the viruses and bacteria, I can only speculate but I believe they could have survived in various different ways, some carried by the humans on board, some carried by the animals, some could have "evolved" (mutated) from relatively harmless types carried aboard the ark to what they are today, I suppose some could survive in the human corpses that washed ashore after, some carried by insects (mosquitos perhaps) etc

I don't believe he took insects on the ark either, only land-breathing land-dwelling creatures. The insects would have survived in different ways (accidentally being carried on the ark, floating debris, floating vegetation etc)
 
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Apostacy? Root of my unbelief?

You take yourself way too seriously, dude. All you do in every thread is lord over everyone with this smug, holier-than-thou pseudo-intellectualism that could have only derived itself from not being hugged enough as a child, an inferiority complex, a pathological need to hear yourself talk, or some combination of the three. You rip on everyone's religion and whenever anybody calls you out on your bullshit you hide behind tl;dr essays or your own inane ramblings about predestination, original sin, and eternal damnation. You're really big on that last one. It's like your personal fetish to tell everyone they're going to Hell; you act like you care, but you really don't because your own belief system denies free will and makes any discussion with you the intellectual equivalent of banging your head against a wall while you shoot yourself over and over again. You should have been banned a long time ago, AquaBuddah2010, for violating this board's ToA. You take every discussion about theology and devolve it into a one-man circlejerk with same lines we've heard before. It's getting old. Peace.

I understand how you feel, but you are trying to mix evolution in with the Bible, and it doesnt mix. Its one thing to say there has been textual corruption, its another thing to prove it. Thats what I wanted you to try to do.
 
It all could happen. If you ignore all the evidence telling you that it couldn't or change the definitions of what you're looking for as the original claims get ruled out.

Why ignore any evidence?

Also, I'm confused. Are you still saying that science has disproved that hypothesis (like you said it had initially)? Or are you no longer saying that?
 
To those who don't accept macro-evolution as scientific, what are your thoughts on the endosymbiotic theory? Particularly the genetic evidence for the relationship between mitochondria, chloroplasts and cyanobacteria. Also what are your thoughts on the genetics of morphological evolution (if you've ever read the book: Your Inner Fish it gives you an idea of the field.) I'm assuming that you've educated yourself (thoroughly) in evolutionary theory before labeling it as not having sufficient evidence to be scientific. So these topics shouldn't be foreign.
 
my observation was about after the creation of life,which supposedly only took 1 billion years.So the event to spark life ill give you is a giant first step,but i was talking about after single cell organisms had already formed and already learned how to replicate itself.It only took 1 billion for life to begin,but 2.6 billion to go from 1 cell to the first basic multi celled and then only 1 billion to go from a basic multi celled to the human beings.Since this is all left too chance and where not talking about the spark of life but the progression of more complicated life.

Is not the advancement from a basic multi celled creature to humans a much more giant leap in complexity than from a 1 cell creatures to the first multi celled?

also keep in mind the number of times for chance to create humans is diminished by first 1/3 of the time span it took and diminished by the length in between the creation of offspring which leads to change,going from minutes to years,therefore going by your model because there can be no intelligent design but only chance,the transition from a single cell to the first multi celled vs the transition from a basic multi celled to humans just doesnt seem to correlate logically in the time difference each supposedly took

1st: "By chance" isn't the right way to look at things after reproductive life took hold. Certainly the individual mutations at the genetic level were random, but the feedback mechanisms and the rapid development of more adaptive generations make the random walk more of a ratchet that can't go backward. The only randomness on a generational level is how fast the organism makes innovative leaps.

2nd: Look at an exponential curve, or a logarithmic curve. If the vertical axis measures "complexity" or maybe (more scientifically) "local anti-entropy", and the horizontal measures time, then at the start there's a LONG, SLOW development period, where new advances take place at a rate that's not fathomable by our mortal minds. Then, seemingly all of a sudden, there's a rapid growth. Things have built a cumulative base that allows for more and more growth at a rate proportionate to the current level of complexity.

In real life you'd see this curve taper off after a while, once the organism has neared the "peak" of efficiency based on it's current systemic makeup. After another long time of mutation, adaption, and environmental changes, there'd be another boom, then another plateau, then another boom.

3rd: your measure of "complex" is the wrong thing to look at. Look at the difficulty of the steps. It was much more difficult to rely on random fluid dynamics to get the ingredients together to make the first cells. It was still very difficult for cells to nucleate their genetic molecules to allow for specialization (each cell only using a part of the code), and for pairs or groups of cells to start to work together using the same base genetics but doing different things to sustain a new "multi-cellular organism". Then it was less hard to develop a group of cells devoted to metabolism, a group for locomotion, and a group for stability/strength (skeletal structures). Then it was less hard to develop bilateral symmetry, cells for observation, cells for analyzing the observations, and cells for sexual reproduction with other organisms. Then it was less hard for these cells to develop the best fins, the best stomachs, the best eyes and noses. Then it was less hard for these cells to adapt to walking on land than swimming, to breathing air instead of filtering water. Then it was less hard for super runners to evolve, for throwers, for thinkers, for flyers, for each new "complex" to adapt quickly and uniquely to give the genetic line the best chance to survive against co-evolving predators and prey.

Your reckoning of time and of how "chance" works are failing to account for how much time really passed and how likely things really are. Further, your measure of current biological organisms doesn't really align with how "evolution" could be measured. I hope I've given you a good basis to think about these problems further, and I appreciate your continued involvement in the discussion. Note also that I've never ruled out some supernatural force - I've only outlined how the standard story can work without one being actively designing each next step, or each type of organism.
 
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