Its just an illusion.
Einstein's historic 'God Letter' written shortly before death up for auction — opening bid
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Its just an illusion.
Sola_Fide
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Ah, I see. So you don't have a coherent explanation for anything. If time is an illusion, how can you know it is infinite? Maybe infinity is one of your illusions too (beside it being illogical anyway).
Infinity is not an illusion. Its a fact that every point in infinity is the center of the universe. The laws we perceive today are just observations and can be broken, just like our observation of time as a strait line.
They're not separate, "eternity":
There’s an order of succession to what God or any creator does, that makes them exist in time. Denying that is either misusing or misunderstanding the term "time".
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Sola_Fide
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To say that God exists in time is not Biblical. It's not a Christian conception. It might be a Mormon conception of things (which I think is where you are coming from based on earlier posts), but its not Biblical. As the Bible describes God, He doesn't exist in time, He created it.
jmdrake
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Who says God defied the laws of physics? Which laws in particular? Every so often scientists have to "rewrite" parts of the laws of physics because they found out something new. For instance, it was once believed (as in very recently) that nothing could go faster than the speed of light. But now, apparently, scientists have found particles going faster than the speed of light. Were the laws of physics "broken" or just previously misunderstood? (See: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=particles-found-to-travel)
This exchange has not been bout your Biblical or Christian definition of God or time. tttppp’s post to which you first replied (below) wasn’t about “Biblical" God or Christianity. And your reply to it wasn’t about “Biblical God” or "Christianity". On my part it’s been about the concept of time as it relates to the universe and creation, starting with my reply to tttpp’s post with “Fire away.” When I mentioned “God” to you I meant the term in the objective sense, creator of the universe, not your “Biblical” and subjective definition and all its implications. Your replies to both me and tttppp immediately turned into a “Biblical” circular argument.
Sola_Fide
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All of my responses to tttppp have been from the Biblical worldview (however consistently or inconsistently I am able to apply it).
Why would you expect me to argue for any other conception of God other than the God of the Scriptures? I am a Christian...that's what Christians do. A Christian should never accept a non-Biblical conception of God and then argue for it, because
1) he would be arguing for an idol, and
2) it will lead to logical inconsistencies
I ONLY defend the Christian worldview and how God revealed Himself in the Bible..and I am happy to be "guilty" of circular reasoning here, because God's Word is the axiom of my knowledge.
Any Christian who does not begin with God's Word is employing an incorrect method of apologetics. But, from your posts, I get the feeling that you are not a Christian anyway. Am I right? Why have you never told anyone where you are coming from?
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1stAmendguy
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Has your epistemology ever lead you to skepticism?
Sola_Fide
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Of course. One of the criticisms of fideists is to dismiss them as hopeless skeptics.
TER
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You mean your worldview of predestination and however you consistently or inconsistently apply it. It certainly wouldn't sound 'Biblical' to Christians circa 33 AD. Neither then and up to this day. And unless one humbles themselves to Jesus Christ Who is the Life and the Way, and to His Body the Church which is guided and anointed by the Holy Spirit, we run the risk of making gods of our own minds and make our own interpretations that which is 'Biblical'. History does reveal certain truths when one believes in a God Who keeps His promises and Who died on the Cross for the salvation of all. For any god who did less would be no god. And the Christian God took on our flesh and our weaknesses in order to heal our flesh and vanquish our weaknesses. In order to reconcile us back with our Creator and have us share in His divine nature and the eternal joy and glory of His Heavenly Kingdom, He humbled Himself and taught us to be humble.
Born in a cave surrounding by beasts of burden, He showed us the Way to the Kingdom, and that is in humility, forgiveness, mercy and love. And we are commanded to follow Him. Not to accept our fate, but to follow Him. Our fates may be known to God, but for us and according to us here in this world, it has not yet been decided. And unfortunately, our actions and the stances we take are not always according to His will, and like the prodigal son we follow our own will and seek to live life according to our own terms and understanding and not in obedience and humility to our father who loves us dearly and desires to share with us His Kingdom. Thus, we should search for those stances and study those understandings which demonstrate fidelity, consistency, antiquity and truth. These are the assurances for the followers of Christ found in the historical records and timelines and most importantly found and experienced in the worship of God by His Church. And most centrally, in the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. For St. Peter, Who shared in these Holy Mysteries said:"Cloth yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that in due time he may exalt you." (1 Peter 5:5-7)
And in the way only a God of Love would do, in selflessness and without sin, righteous and pure in every way, the Savior of Israel and of all the nations of the earth, the Lord and Prince of Peace Jesus Christ Who is Risen from the dead, humbled Himself, took on our flesh, and came down to us so that by doing so He might restore us, fulfill us, sanctify us, indeed bring us all up to Him - our deification and partaking of the divine nature of God. The very reason of our existence. The little thing Mr. Einstein could not accept because he could not measure it or describe it.
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Sola_Fide
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The Biblical worldview is more than just predestination. It is justification by grace alone as well, for example. But to just explain away the predestination passages in the Bible is just...I don't know, not Biblical.
When do you think Paul wrote his letters? In the 50's or 60's? Because Paul talks about (and explains in depth) predestination in numerous passages and in more than one book.
So, we should submit our minds to another set of fallible minds? That sounds nuts to me...and not Biblical. That is the SURE way to make gods out of men...by giving men the authority that belongs to God alone.
Sola Scriptura is not "my interpretation alone". It's "scripture alone". Scripture stands above my interpretation, and every other interpretation, and judges it rightly or wrongly.
God would be less than God if He created a world which He knew He would be eternally frustrated and eternally defeated. He wants everyone to be saved, but they aren't. He sent His Son to die and shed His blood for men that will be in Hell forever? That isn't a god...that is a scizophrenic and illogical figment of someone's imagination. It's not the God of the Bible who makes everything He intends come to pass infallibly.
"Share in the divine nature"??? How? Metaphyiscally? If so, then that is surely not Biblical.
Wrong. That is not the way to the kingdom. The path that leads to destruction is full of men who are humble, and have love and show mercy. That is NOT the way to the kingdom.
How does any human know what their fate is? Since no human can know what their fate is, the command of the Lord is all we have (and all we need).
I agree. For us, in this world, we are not privy to God's predestinating decree. We have the revealed commands of God, and that is what we must abide by.
We very clearly are not in line with God's revealed will. But we are ALWAYS in line with His decree. His decree is what gives form to time itself. He is the only cause.
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The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not "experiences". The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a declaration of an event that happened wholly outside of man (on the cross of calvary).
Right, but 1st Peter was written to God's elect:
This god that you speak of is not worthy of worship. This god you speak of cannot even bring His purposes to pass. Why should I worship a Being who cannot even bring His purposes to pass? Why should this Being deserve glory if He cannot bring His purposes to pass?
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TER
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The error lies in your Calvinistic understanding of predestination which is an innovative interpretations of the Scriptures and inconsistent with the witness of the Church from the beginning.
Again, predestination as described by St. Paul is not the same understanding as you have. You have decided to take John Calvin's interpretation and made it your own. Unfortunately for you, John Calvin was wrong.
"..for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His Bride has made herself ready; it was granted to her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure - for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints." (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Scriptures are words in a book and unfortunately these words when read can lead some people to have different interpretations. This is why there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations and why Christ created a living Church and not a living book. Even when that same Church wrote and compiled what we call today the New Testament, never was it considered to be the sole source of authority but rather a tool for the faithful in becoming members of the Church.
God is love and loves all people and has sent His Son to grant salvation to all. This is the Christian teaching my friend and you would do good to learn it.
"I said, “You are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High.” (Psalm 82:6)
"To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1)
The references to theosis and to the faithful partaking in the divine nature of God and becoming adopted sons of the Most High is found throughout the Scriptures and writings of the Church Fathers. Indeed, Christ went on the Cross in order to send us the Holy Spirit so that we might share in the Kingdom and that is why St. Paul tells us to 'put on Christ'.
It is astounding that you object to humility, forgiveness, mercy and love as being the path to the Kingdom. You should reread the Beatitudes.
You have a very empty and superficial idea of the tenets of Christianity if you believe that we do not strive to have experience with God, for after all, our relationship with God is about our experience of God and living experiential communion with Him. Also, what Christ did on Golgotha was not a single event wholly outside of man as you put it, but is an eternal event with eternal intimate consequences for all men who have ever lived.
It is because of our arrogant and limited minds, incapable of understanding how an Almighty God can allow His creation to have free will, which makes people cling to the innovative interpretations that you have. Instead of humbling yourself before God Who has given us the freedom to choose Him and Who will judge us according to how we lived and how we treated others, you want to make it easy for yourself, so you cast away any personal responsibility and self-accountability and consider yourself 'elect' and in the process castigate all who disagree with you to be heading towards hell. Believe me SF, Calvinism is going the way of Montanism and all other heretical sects that have popped up here and there throughout the centuries, and in it's wake it will be remembered as the Christian sect which made God a tyrant, the source of evil, and the people nothing but automatons with no hand or accountability at all for the sins they do. Indeed, in comparison to almost every other heterodox church in history, these teachings are up there with being the worst of the worst. The only reason Calvinism is still around is because it shares so much with the spirit of the age which is namely nihilism, that is the belief that the things we do or don't do really doesn't matter in the whole scheme of things, the one using as it's crutch nothingness and nonexistence and that 'God is dead' and the other using as it's crutch egoism that they have some special privileged state given to them by an evil god.
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Sola_Fide
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TER,
There were a couple of things that really stood out to me in your responses.
The first one was this:
1. You have the same interpretation of Psalm 82 that cultists and polytheists have. Psalm 82 is not saying that there are many gods in the universe or even lesser gods in the universe. The term "elohim" that was applied to the judges who were falsely judging was not a reference to their deity, it was a reference to their position as the judges of Israel. It could not be a reference to deity because the Lord declares that they will "die like men". Deities do not die.
And when Jesus referenced this in the gospel of John, He applied this to the false judges who were falsely judging Him by saying He wasn't God Himself.
2. Man does not ever participate in God metaphysically. There is a vast and unpassable metaphysical chasm between God and man. The two can never mix, and one cannot ever become the other.
Jesus put on flesh, but He didn't become a man. He remained God, and His nature did not mix with His human nature. We participate in God's nature ethically, not metaphysically. And a man can only participate in the ethical nature of God because God imputes the righteousness of Christ to that man. Purely by grace.
The other thing was this:
Have you read the book of Romans? Have you understood that man's righteousnesses are filthy rags in the sight of a holy God? Do you know that we are not justified in any way by our works of mercy, love, or forgiveness?
What good works are you going to offer up to God on the last day TER? Why would you think your works mean anything to the Lord? Don't you know that your works will condemn you on the last day? There is nothing more Pharisaical than to believe that you have some righteousess that you can offer to God. We have no righteousness. A man is saved by faith in Christ's righteousness alone.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is justification by faith alone. Every false gospel in the world will say that man's works will be acceptable to God. The only works that are acceptable to God are Christ's works.
There were a couple of things that really stood out to me in your responses.
The first one was this:
1. You have the same interpretation of Psalm 82 that cultists and polytheists have. Psalm 82 is not saying that there are many gods in the universe or even lesser gods in the universe. The term "elohim" that was applied to the judges who were falsely judging was not a reference to their deity, it was a reference to their position as the judges of Israel. It could not be a reference to deity because the Lord declares that they will "die like men". Deities do not die.
And when Jesus referenced this in the gospel of John, He applied this to the false judges who were falsely judging Him by saying He wasn't God Himself.
2. Man does not ever participate in God metaphysically. There is a vast and unpassable metaphysical chasm between God and man. The two can never mix, and one cannot ever become the other.
Jesus put on flesh, but He didn't become a man. He remained God, and His nature did not mix with His human nature. We participate in God's nature ethically, not metaphysically. And a man can only participate in the ethical nature of God because God imputes the righteousness of Christ to that man. Purely by grace.
The other thing was this:
Have you read the book of Romans? Have you understood that man's righteousnesses are filthy rags in the sight of a holy God? Do you know that we are not justified in any way by our works of mercy, love, or forgiveness?
What good works are you going to offer up to God on the last day TER? Why would you think your works mean anything to the Lord? Don't you know that your works will condemn you on the last day? There is nothing more Pharisaical than to believe that you have some righteousess that you can offer to God. We have no righteousness. A man is saved by faith in Christ's righteousness alone.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is justification by faith alone. Every false gospel in the world will say that man's works will be acceptable to God. The only works that are acceptable to God are Christ's works.
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acptulsa
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No, he doesn't. It isn't just or right for you to put these words in his mouth. And if this is the best interpretation of his statement you can come up with, it doesn't bode well for your interpretation of the epistles.
You have said more than once that you seem to insist on the idea of predestination because you don't consider God worthy of your worship if He doesn't know how the game is going to come out before it's over. Well, I don't put such conditions on my adoration. Any more than I believe that when Jesus said, 'Take, eat, this is my body', the disciples became cannibals. And I don't look at you putting this sort of precondition on your adoration as the result of a humble spirit.
Furthermore, despite all of your relentless trolling I still believe that Jesus teaching us what we need to know to walk with God is God's grace. And that instruction from the One the disciples called Teacher is only useful to those who have free will to learn from it.
This thread started out so well. Shame to see it hijacked straight to Hell.
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Sola_Fide
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Yes. He does. If he believes that this verse teaches that there are other gods or we can participate in God metaphysically and become part of God...then that is the same interpretation that various cults have. Specifically Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.
No, I never said that. I said that a God who cannot bring His purposes to pass is not worthy of worship. If man is more powerful than God and can frustrate His will, then man is more deserving of worship because man is more powerful than God (and of course this view of God leads to the worship of man anyway).
Do you believe in prophecy? How can prophesy exist if God does is not able to bring His purposes to pass? Is prophecy just an accident?
How are you relating this to what Jesus said about the Lord's supper? I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that the passages of predestination are symbolic and not literal? Then, you have to prove that by the text (and that would be an interesting thing to try for sure
).Then, you need to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. A good place to start would be the books of Romans and Galatians, because in them Paul lays out the very simple idea that no man can walk with God as you say. No man can follow God's commands. No man can be righteous. No man can do good.
Gos is holy. He cannot allow sin in His sight. He demands a life of perfect obedience to His law. Man cannot fulfill this requirement because man is dead in sin. Man cannot follow any of God's laws. There is only one man who has perfectly followed God's commands: Jesus.
A man is saved only by having faith in Jesus's perfect life and perfect works. Only Christ's works will be acceptable in God's sight.
TER
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You are correct in that we cannot experience the essence of God which is unknowable and unreachable to us created beings. However, we can experience and participate in the energies of God. If you are not familiar with these theological points which are Patristic and in accordance to the faith handed down for the past 2000 years, then I urge you to read the works of St. Gregory of Palamas. This is why there are those who have beheld the Uncreated Light of God and who themselves also shined in this Light by the grace of God. Or why saints have walked on water and risen the dead by their prayers to God. The very goal of the Christian life is to obtain the Holy Spirit. This is the Gospel teaching in a nutshell. This is the very reason why Christ came to earth, so that we might be able to share in His Kingdom. True, we could not do it by ourselves, which is why He came to bridge that gap and offer us the Way back to eternal loving communion with our Creator. This is the theology of the Church and why Christians went to their deaths confessing Christ is risen from the dead.
These are your teachings and interpretations. However, they are not the teachings and interpretations of the 2000 year old witness of the Church. If you choose to make them your interpretations, then so be it. I am simply stating that your interpretations are not at all in accordance to the witness of the Church which predates you by 2000 years.
acptulsa
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The Trinity comes dangerously close to that, bud. So does the concept of 'letting God into your heart'. That said, I still don't believe he said or intended the words you're putting in his mouth.
You did say that. Or, if you did not, you said that you presume what God's will is.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I answered all of the further questions in this post before. And got the same deaf ear, and the same spam, for my efforts. If you're not human enough, or humble enough, to apologize to TER for calling him a polytheist, then there's nothing I can do to help you.
Thank you for almost getting this poor, beleaguered, hijacked thread back on track. You're obviously closer both to Einstein's intelligence and his humility than some others in this thread.
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Sola_Fide
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No, the Trinity is nowhere close to polytheism.
Christians are monotheists. There is one God and only one God. God is one in being and three in person. There are three co-equal and co-eternal persons in the Godhead.
God is one what and three who's. This is not polytheism. Mormons, for example say that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all separate gods...and on top of those, there are countless other gods and goddesses out in the universe. This is not Biblical.
God's will is what He has revealed in the Scripture. There's no presuming needed. It's right there.
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