Bailouts: Dutch Government Collapses Over Debt Woes

[osan]

We are seeing economic experiments being conducted on a grand scale

To believe that these are all the machinations of benevolent governments flailing innocently about in their attempts to save their respective economies is beyond naive, bordering on the blatantly stupid, please pardon my candor.

There are several possible scenarios at play here and without very inside information, which none of us will ever be privy to, it is impossible to do anything better than speculate as to what is the real agenda afoot. One thing that is speculative in only a token sense is that this is all the product of some very serious power cultivation. I smell a global-scale dialectic at work here, and a possible end-game.

Either "they" are driving us to the edge for the purposes of scaring everyone so sheet-white-shitless that the vast and overwhelming majority of the effected populations will simply lay down for the sake of a warm, if flavorless meal courtesy of the new global socialist state, or they mean to actually wreck it and sit back as we murder each other over simple things like food and shelter. I hold no illusions that what we are witnessing now is the product of benign error. Far from it.

and it remains to be seen which is the better approach.

You mean which is the less horrid. Neither is sound in the least bit.

In Europe the recession is trying to be met with efforts to reduce government deficits which at this time is acting as a break or headwinds on their economies

A necessary condition but not sufficient. Their markets are significantly less free than ours and it shows. Their markets are therefore in proportionally worse shape and people are more vulnerable than are we. By how much I am no longer sure, particularly since 'Bammy and his Marxist bully boys have been at it, thanks to the wonderful set up provided them by the previous two administrations. Without proper freedom, their economies are doomed to this brand of failure. And worst of all, most of the stupid Europeans willingly gave up any right to the means of effective defense decades ago. At this point about the best they can do is use harsh language, and we all know how well that works. At least here if things go that badly we can take some of the bastards with us.

while in the US the government has been trying to use higher government spending (increasing deficits) to try to spur the economy on and worry about reducing the debt later (if ever). It remains to be seen which approach will be the best in the long run.

That is what they say. It is not what they mean. Clearly the goal here is to destroy what exists so that it can be replaced with something else. This year stands to become most interesting.

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

I happen to live in the Netherlands, but it would take a lot of time to even explain how our political system is different from the US.

I'm happy to try and answer some questions but I can't give a general outline without explaining the whole things, which would take me a lot more time then I have on hand at the moment.

Very short overview of our political system, once every 4 years, people pick a party they like on the national stage. This party has a number of people on the list, and the more votes the PARTY receives the more people of that party are allowed to go into the body that is equivalent to congress. Parties can decide for themselves who to put where on the list, some parties are democratic in this way, others are not. Then the 'congress' is filled with 150 seats. The 'government' is then formed by usually three parties, but it can be more as they have to reach a majority.

This time around however, there was one party that deserves some special attention. This party is called 'Partij voor de Vrijheid', or in English 'freedom party'. This is a party that was started by one disgruntled member of the Liberal democrats. He does not like Islam, his name is Mr. Wilders, and if you google him you will find enough things about him. His party is called 'extreme right' in the Netherlands, but his policies are more in the National Socialist spectrum, he want's to give his voting base more stuff, says he can magically make 10.000 nurses appear etc.

Anyways, because this Mr. Wilders has made some extreme remarks regarding Muslims and other minority groups, none of the other parties wanted to form a government with them, or him, as his party has no internal democratic structure, he decides upon everything, no dissent allowed.

A government was formed between the 'VVD' (31 out of 150 seats) which are Liberal Democrats, these people are seen as 'right wing' in the Netherlands, they are somewhat interested in the free market, at least so they claim. They like NATO, Europe, etc. They talk about free market principles and self responsibility but when it comes down to it, they like to regulate. BUT!! They want to bring down the deficit to 3% (but not less). The other party that formed the Government was the 'CDA' or Christian Democrats, this used to be the biggest party with over 40 seats, but they suffered a major credibility loss after re-running our ex prime minister, Mr. Balkenende (google him). Their policies are about the same as the VVD, differences on minor points like more aid to farmers and more religious freedom in schools etc. Anyways, their number of seats was halved, so they were unable to form a government with these two parties.

All the other parties were too small to get the 76 seat majority, except for the socialist party and the 'freedom party', well even to these pseudo- free market socialists, the socialist party is a step too far, and as 4 party agreements were failing, they finally settled for something completely different. A minority government, that would be 'tolerated' by this Mr. Wilders' 'freedom party'. What it came down to was, they made an initial agreement and the CDA and VVD got the secretaries of the different bureaucracies and the prime minister, with all the responsibility and flak that comes with it. And Mr. Wilders with his never very friendly rhetoric was handed the button to blow the whole thing up when the polls look favorable to him.

So they agreed to cut 16 billion from the budget (probably from the proposed increases), and then it was found that more money had to be cut, and then the plug was pulled. That's the whole story...

This is about the shortest background I can give without mixing my opinion in it too much, well I already did. Happy to answer questions if able to.

+1

It's always nice to get a local perspective

What I find really funny though is how Europeans distinguish "Right" & "Left" based mostly on social issues because economically they're all more or less socialist So if someone believes in nationalism & is anti-EU, anti-UN, anti-massive-immigration then they're "Right-winger"
Well, I don't know, may be Wilders isn't exactly the best guy but may be he's your best bet out there among the poor choices that you have since he seems to be for less taxes & regulation (at least in tone), against foreign aid & wars & he seems to be against EUSSR too
The thing I dislike about him is that he's an Israel-firster, well, people of Israel should be Israel-firsters, that's fine, but Dutch should be Netherland-firsters & Americans America-firsters & so on since I think nationalism (which is different from JINGOISM) is needed in this day & age when there's increasing pressure by the people at the top to centralize power by making all these global political "unions"

Anyways, I couldn't stop laughing at "free market socialism", even though I know what it means in European context but I just find it really weird, especially in the light of what Mises believed that - there's (free market) capitalism & there's socialism, no other system!

So has Ron Paul Revolution had even a slight effect on some people there? Is there ANY chance of the talk about an ACTUAL free market returning to the mainstream in Netherlands? Are people willing to revisit their socialism dreams in the wake of the economic disaster? How do you see the Europeans' general approach towards gun-rights changing in the wake of the current turmoil?

 

[slamhead]

I heard it said that freedom is 1000 times more addictive than heroin. I am starting to think that the nanny state and free money is 5000 times more addictive. Why is it so hard for people to understand what needs to be done.

 

[JohnM]

In Britain, government spending is a very big portion of the economy- which is why government cuts or spending can have a big impact on the overall economy there- and does need to be reeled in.

In Europe the recession is trying to be met with efforts to reduce government deficits

I have lived in Scotland for over 25 years. In recent years, I have been involved in local politics.

I can tell you what I have seen with my own eyes, in the area in which I live. Between 1998 and 2008, there was a massive increase in public spending. Money was being thrown at all kinds of projects, most of which were, in my opinion, highly dubious. However, they were politically very popular.

In 2008, the economic crisis arrived. People started talking about cuts and austerity. Ordinary people were worried.

What did I see with my own eyes? I saw no significant cuts in public spending. To cut public spending in Scotland is politically impossible. Today, public spending remains much higher than it was ten years ago.

 

[Zippyjuan]

Thank you for sharing you personal insights and experiences.

 

[Domalais]

What did I see with my own eyes? I saw no significant cuts in public spending. To cut public spending in Scotland is politically impossible. Today, public spending remains much higher than it was ten years ago.

No different than the United States. That's why deficits are lower under Democratic Presidents - Both parties spend exactly the same, but one taxes more. Neither side has the desire, backbone, or power to actually cut the spending that their constituencies love so much.

 

[luctor-et-emergo]

So has Ron Paul Revolution had even a slight effect on some people there? Is there ANY chance of the talk about an ACTUAL free market returning to the mainstream in Netherlands? Are people willing to revisit their socialism dreams in the wake of the economic disaster? How do you see the Europeans' general approach towards gun-rights changing in the wake of the current turmoil?

-So has Ron Paul Revolution had even a slight effect on some people there?
He has been called an 'extremist' in the few media reports there were about him, I talk about Ron Paul and the message of freedom all the time, people tend to agree with me on most issues, but then come back with, 'but it isn't going to work'.

- Is there ANY chance of the talk about an ACTUAL free market returning to the mainstream in Netherlands?
Probably just as soon as in the US. My best guess is that the whole thing needs to break down before people are able to even think about another system... They are well educated you know.

-Are people willing to revisit their socialism dreams in the wake of the economic disaster?
I think that is the only option, and the best option. The younger generation is probably more open to it. The internet generation, many of them probably have seen some youtube video's about Ron Paul, but the younger generation here is NOT politically active, the few that are, tend to be hardcore socialists that go out waving red flags etc. etc.

-How do you see the Europeans' general approach towards gun-rights changing in the wake of the current turmoil?
Gun Rights ? What are you talking about. We don't have any gun rights. Owning a firearm is a bureaucratic mess and is never allowed for self defense purposes. At least in the Netherlands. Even a screwdriver in a public place is seen as a weapon and can get you fined. Guns will get you caged though.

PS: About Wilders, his only points I agree on are abolishing the EURO currency and the European Union.

 

[Icymudpuppy]

This happens in the Netherlands every year. It's how they do bureaucratic holidays over there. Totally a non news item.

 

[hazek]

Here's how I can answer for my country in center-south Europe:

-So has Ron Paul Revolution had even a slight effect on some people there?
He has been called an 'extremist' in the few media reports there were about him, I talk about Ron Paul and the message of freedom all the time, people tend to agree with me on most issues, but then come back with, 'but it isn't going to work'.

When he is mentioned, which is awful rarely, it's only briefly without going into much detail what exactly he believes in or what messages he's trying to spread and it's usually labeled with a few general unfitting words. Putting it shorter: he has almost zero effect unless people discovered him online like I did.

- Is there ANY chance of the talk about an ACTUAL free market returning to the mainstream in Netherlands?
Probably just as soon as in the US. My best guess is that the whole thing needs to break down before people are able to even think about another system... They are well educated you know.

Slim to none for my country.

-Are people willing to revisit their socialism dreams in the wake of the economic disaster?
I think that is the only option, and the best option. The younger generation is probably more open to it. The internet generation, many of them probably have seen some youtube video's about Ron Paul, but the younger generation here is NOT politically active, the few that are, tend to be hardcore socialists that go out waving red flags etc. etc.

More and more so unfortunately. Note the presidential candidate leading in the polls in France..

-How do you see the Europeans' general approach towards gun-rights changing in the wake of the current turmoil?
Gun Rights ? What are you talking about. We don't have any gun rights. Owning a firearm is a bureaucratic mess and is never allowed for self defense purposes. At least in the Netherlands. Even a screwdriver in a public place is seen as a weapon and can get you fined. Guns will get you caged though.

We are disarmed and people are brainwashed into staying disarmed which I don't see changing until it hits the fan.

I'm afraid it's a pretty bleak picture here in Europe and I'd be seriously considering moving some place else if it wasn't so relatively peaceful thus far. When that changes I'm definitely moving.

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

I heard it said that freedom is 1000 times more addictive than heroin. I am starting to think that the nanny state and free money is 5000 times more addictive. Why is it so hard for people to understand what needs to be done.

The prospect of "free lunch" is very attractive to most people & most of the people too stupid & too intellectually lazy to realize that there's no such thing as "free lunch"; that's the whole issue, always been

That's why one of the freest countries in the world that went on to become the most powerful in history was set up NOT by the majority vote but by a bunch of liberty-minded ELITES, they even restricted voting-rights to ONLY the property-owners because they knew that if every idiot got to vote then people will vote for such thieves who promise to take from those who have earned it & give it to those who haven't

History is replete with examples showing how the systems always end up being TOP-DOWN
There's an economic & other costs to be paid to have the kind of system you want, if enough liberty-minded people, which could be minority-population, were to take over the system either economically &/or politically &/or intellectually then ONLY THEN will be stand a chance at a free-society, the stupid & intellectually lazy majority will probably never choose it on their own

So those who want a free society will have to garner enough economic, political, intellectual clout needed to revamp the system

-So has Ron Paul Revolution had even a slight effect on some people there?
He has been called an 'extremist' in the few media reports there were about him, I talk about Ron Paul and the message of freedom all the time, people tend to agree with me on most issues, but then come back with, 'but it isn't going to work'.

Yes, the only guy asking for peace & VOLUNTARY society is "extremist", funny isn't it!
Yes, a fair number of people will agree to the basic arguments but won't understand the whole concept of free market & that's why I prefer to broach the issue with pointing out that if all people are supposed to have equal rights then people in government also shouldn't be able STEAL & COERCE others
And the fact that people are largely driven by self-interest so if you have a coercive monopoly then that automatically attracts people who want to use such coercive monopoly to benefit themselves & that's why corruption is rife among democratic governments EVERYWHERE, even though it's the people that are voting them in

- Is there ANY chance of the talk about an ACTUAL free market returning to the mainstream in Netherlands?
Probably just as soon as in the US. My best guess is that the whole thing needs to break down before people are able to even think about another system... They are well educated you know.

I'm not so sure that a break-down will necessarily lead to free market because in the times of economic distress, people often tend to move towards more government & socialism but yes, at least the break-down of the system will force people to look at alternatives - & my signature says the rest
Yes, & I'm sure people are VERY educated - public education - one of the things on Karl Marx's 10 planks!

-Are people willing to revisit their socialism dreams in the wake of the economic disaster?
I think that is the only option, and the best option. The younger generation is probably more open to it. The internet generation, many of them probably have seen some youtube video's about Ron Paul, but the younger generation here is NOT politically active, the few that are, tend to be hardcore socialists that go out waving red flags etc. etc.

Young people, well, people in general, tend not to be too politically active unless they see things turning bad for themselves so again, hopefully now that there's internet, at least they'll be willing to look at the alternatives rather than going back to same old - more government, more socialism!

-How do you see the Europeans' general approach towards gun-rights changing in the wake of the current turmoil?
Gun Rights ? What are you talking about. We don't have any gun rights. Owning a firearm is a bureaucratic mess and is never allowed for self defense purposes. At least in the Netherlands. Even a screwdriver in a public place is seen as a weapon and can get you fined. Guns will get you caged though.

Things could change pretty quickly if things get worse, well, at least I hope they change

PS: About Wilders, his only points I agree on are abolishing the EURO currency and the European Union.

Yes, those are the main points, national sovereignty is the core issue at the moment as there's a push towards more political unions & centralization

Here's a Ron Paul classic on the issue

This happens in the Netherlands every year. It's how they do bureaucratic holidays over there. Totally a non news item.

LMAO

 

[liza4fregoso]

I have lived in Scotland for over 25 years. In recent years, I have been involved in local politics.

I can tell you what I have seen with my own eyes, in the area in which I live. Between 1998 and 2008, there was a massive increase in public spending. Money was being thrown at all kinds of projects, most of which were, in my opinion, highly dubious. However, they were politically very popular.

In 2008, the economic crisis arrived. People started talking about cuts and austerity. Ordinary people were worried.

What did I see with my own eyes? I saw no significant cuts in public spending. To cut public spending in Scotland is politically impossible. Today, public spending remains much higher than it was ten years ago.

Thank you for your experience.

 

[luctor-et-emergo]

This happens in the Netherlands every year. It's how they do bureaucratic holidays over there. Totally a non news item.

You're right, it happens more often. We had premature elections the last 5 governments, so they all had internal disagreements.

Right now they passed some quick 'reforms', some of the things are not really detailed or transparent but a couple things were mentioned in the official document;
-Sales tax is going up by 2%, from 19 to 21%
-Income tax for the lowest incomes is going down. (nothing specified)
-Employers will have to pay additional payroll taxes for 'high wage' employees.
-Bonuses or Golden Handshakes are going to be taxed at 75% instead of 30%.
-Banking tax (like 0.05% on every transfer) is going to double.
-Government employees are not going to get a pay raise for two years. (Finally)
-Unemployment benefits (first 6 months) are going to have to be paid by the employer. (I don't really understand, you fire someone, they fail to find a job and you have to pay them for half a year after you fired them ?)
-People with low incomes will get more subsidies for health care, higher incomes will have to pay a higher premium. Yes progressive pay for health care... It's already mandatory to have insurance, but 'rich' people pay an extra premium, and people with lower incomes get a subsidy.
-They are going to put extra money in 'growing the green economy', subsidizing more windmills and solar panels...
-Food is sold at a lower sales tax rate of 6% and solar panels are going to be joining food.
-Tax rates for Fuel, Cigarettes, Alcohol and SOFT DRINKS are going up, like huh ? We didn't have a tax on soft drinks for as far as I know, but apparently we will get one... Gotta keep people healthy!!
-People with an income between 33.000 and 43.000 euro's a year are going to have to pay the inflation rate in % + 1% extra for renting the same house as someone with a lower income. Which should be about 3-5% extra.

But it's more of the same, they have been doing these things for years. They are always short of money, same story everywhere.