Drones clarification?

juvanya

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Jan 15, 2011
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Can anyone make heads or tails of this? It sounds like he changed his opinion 3 times in 24 hours, but maybe I am not understanding it.

This article is making the rounds on the internet, so it would be good for people to be prepared.

I dont understand why he feels the need to make these compromises. Drones are already controversial in the US and he is one to go against the trend on other issues, not as much as daddy, but still.


Now Rand Paul Thinks It’s OK To Kill U.S. Citizens With Drones On American Soil?

Remember when Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) stood up on the Senate floor for nearly 13 hours in an ideological protest of the Obama administration’s hypothetical authority to use drone technology to kill U.S. citizens on American soil? Well, now he’s saying killing a certain U.S. citizen on some specific American soil in Watertown, Massachusetts last Friday may not have been the worst thing in the world.

During an interview with Neil Cavuto on Fox Business Network Monday night, Paul attempted to make a distinction between the American “sitting in a café” example he has often cited and the “imminent threat” faced by Boston bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Friday night. “I’ve never argued against any technology being used when you have an imminent threat, an active crime going on,” Paul said. Though his next example offered up a disturbingly low bar for the predator drone option. “If someone comes out of a liquor store with a weapon and fifty dollars in cash,” he said, “I don’t care if a drone kills him or a policeman kills him.”

“It’s different,” Paul continued, “if they want to come fly over your hot tub or your yard
just because they want to do surveillance on everyone and watch your activities.” But again, he added, “if there’s killer on the loose in a neighborhood, I’m not against drones being used.”

Paul’s comments in light of the Boston suspect’s arrest are a far cry from his staunchly anti-drone stance just last month. At the very beginning of his filibuster, Paul delivered the words below, which appear to directly contradict his statements from last night.

“I will speak as long as it takes, until the alarm is sounded from coast to coast that our Constitution is important, that your rights to trial by jury are precious, that no American should be killed by a drone on American soil without first being charged with a crime, without first being found to be guilty by a court.”

The purpose of the filibuster was to put pressure on Attorney General Eric Holder and the CIA’s John Brennan to renounce the idea of using drones to kill American citizens. During the Boston investigation last week, the Obama administration along with the FBI made a very deliberate choice to capture the younger suspect alive. Not only because that is the lawful thing to do with a suspect who, however dangerous, is not resisting arrest, but also because preserving the ability to question him will give the country to best chance at finding answers as to why he and his brother committed the attack.

Up until the interview last night, Paul had been remarkably silent about the Tsarnaev case, making no attempts to stand up for the rights of this American citizen, no matter how heinous his crimes were. The only public move he did make was to petition Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid to delay the immigration debate until after the Boston hearings. “The facts emerging in the Boston Marathon bombing have exposed a weakness in our current system,” Paul wrote. “If we don’t use this debate as an opportunity to fix flaws in our current system, flaws made even more evident last week, then we will not be doing our jobs.”

In the same interview with Cavuto last night, Paul did stand against his frequent Senate opposition, Republican Senators Lindsey Graham and John McCain to say he agreed with the administration’s decision not to try Tsarnaev as an enemy combatant. But by indicating he would have made the call to kill the suspect with drone if he’d had the chance, Paul seems to have betrayed the principles of his filibuster.
 
Rand's said repeatedly that he is not against the use of drones to repel an imminent threat, like 9/11. He does have a problem though with the way the administration defines "imminent threat".

The comment Rand made about the liquor store robber with a gun is definitely out of character and I'm guessing he either misspoke or would like to clarify his comments.
 
The liquor store comment is in clear reference to the terrorist walking out of the convenience store after having just robbed it. This is a media hit piece to try and drive a wedge between the liberty movement and Rand.
 
I could be wrong because this is from memory, but I thought Rand used this same (or a very similar) example during the filibuster. I think it was in context of a guy robbing a store and waving a gun and about to shoot, as an example of an immediate attack/threat. He gave other examples like a guy with a bomb inside a building, or shooting down a plane about to crash into to a building (like on 9/11). I've never heard him say drones should be banned, but that the same Consitutional rules should apply to their use ....Just because drones have new technology doesn't mean the bill of rights and due process goes out the window.
 
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From Jack's page:

Folks, the same guy who filibustered for 13 hours to say the government does not have the right to drone American citizens on American soil did not just say the opposite. He might have misspoke. I do all the time. Please give the one person who stood up for this the benefit of the doubt, and not a media eager to attack him any chance they get.
 
For a bunch of people who pride themselves on not paying attention to mainstream media, some libertarians sure are quick to jump on a "gotcha" story the media puts out about a position Rand took which was not out of line with anything he has said in the past. If somebody is in the process of committing a violent crime, governments have the right to use deadly force to stop that crime. Whether a drone is doing that or an officer does not matter.

The drone debate cannot devolve into a lockstep position against a useful piece of technology, it MUST center around using that technology in a way that doesn't violate the constitution. Anything less is the libertarian equivalent of the "assault rifle" hysteria.
 
It is strange wording and definitely needs clarification asap.

I hope Rand doesn't get into the habit of talking just to talk. That's where stuff like this liquor store comment comes from. It wasn't necessary to add to the interview and just creates opportunities for gotcha pieces by the media. Stick to the message!
 
The liquor store comment is in clear reference to the terrorist walking out of the convenience store after having just robbed it. This is a media hit piece to try and drive a wedge between the liberty movement and Rand.

What?
 
I could be wrong because this is from memory, but I thought Rand used this same (or a very similar) example during the filibuster. I think it was in context of a guy robbing a store and waving a gun and about to shoot, as an example of an immediate attack/threat.

Even if Rand did use that example, that is not enough. Drones should never be used to kill an American (or anyone else) without trial. One of the stupid reasons we went to Iraq was because Sadaam was executing people without trial. And now we're doing it and the liberty movement is fine with it? No thanks.

Ron said:

The US government justified its attack on Saddam Hussein in Iraq and against Gaddafi in Libya, and elsewhere, with claims that these despots were killing their own citizens without trial or due process. It is true that extra-juridical killing is the opposite of justice in a free society.
 
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Would Police robots dropping flash-bang grenades on the guy (Dzhokhar) in the boat be the equivalent of a "drone", or is that a robo-cop?
 
When the brothers walked out of the convenience store they had just robbed and killed the MIT cop, Rand is saying it would have been appropriate to use a drone in that instance as they were at large and threatening people with violence.

 
When the brothers walked out of the convenience store they had just robbed and killed the MIT cop, Rand is saying it would have been appropriate to use a drone in that instance as they were at large and threatening people with violence.

They saw them do it? They were guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt? They did NOT rob the store, for sure.

edit: And your example was "terrorist walking out of the convenience store after having just robbed it." Since it was in the context of what Rand said, I saw it as, robbers are terrorists.
 
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Even if Rand did use that example, that is not enough. Drones should never be used to kill an American (or anyone else) without trial. One of the stupid reasons we went to Iraq was because Sadaam was executing people without trial. And now we're doing it and the liberty movement is fine with it? No thanks.

Yeah, but the context was in explaining the difference between self defense scenarios against an immediate lethal attack, versus preemptively killing people just because they might do something someday, or just because they are suspicious, or related to somebody suspicious. Remember the white house is now asserting that imminent no longer necessarily means immediate. Rand spent a lot of time during his filibuster opposing that whole concept.
 
They saw them do it? They were guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt? They did NOT rob the store, for sure.

edit: And your example was "terrorist walking out of the convenience store after having just robbed it."

Its a hypothetical. Surely rand doesn't think they should be able to authorize a drone strike in a situation where the law doesn't allow deadly force (i.e., undeniable imminent direct threat to lives)
 
Its a hypothetical. Surely rand doesn't think they should be able to authorize a drone strike in a situation where the law doesn't allow deadly force (i.e., undeniable imminent direct threat to lives)

I'm wasn't referring to Rand, but to Rocco's use of the word terrorist referring to a robber.

edit: I pretty much stay out of the Rand debate, just watching for now (I might way something once in a while, but....mostly just watching)
 
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