Do you support the removal of all trade barriers with other nations?

[showpan]

The article's premise is false. US industrial production is at all time highs. That completely invalidates it.

You invalidate nothing...still. Production numbers have been fudged to protect the guilty. Making mass amounts of Big Macs do not count. It's jobs that count....and if you eliminate the fuzzy math, there is actually more jobs lost than actually reported. Your misunderstanding of how to read statistics and apply them to (face) reality is one of the problems this country faces and why neocons are still in power.

 

[Cutlerzzz]

You invalidate nothing...still. Production numbers have been fudged to protect the guilty. Making mass amounts of Big Macs do not count. It's jobs that count....and if you eliminate the fuzzy math, there is actually more jobs lost than actually reported. Your misunderstanding of how to read statistics and apply them to (face) reality is one of the problems this country faces and why neocons are still in power.

If your only defenses are calling people neocons for advocating freedom, posting irrelavent numbers you don't even understand, and claiming all relevant numbers are made up, I think this is over.

 

[ProIndividual]

Concession accepted.

But seriously...

Something occurred to me...is this in the Constitution other than interstate commerce (commerce between the states)? If this isn't in the Constitution...which I do not believe it is...then this is a state's issue, not federal. Therefore, you can be as protectionist as you want as long as you don't live in Ohio (and you can't do it against other states, per the interstate commerce clause). I'll watch your state flounder, while mine succeeds. 50 laboratories of experimentation, I say.

So this is a non-issue, other than just arguing the point of who is right, one side or the other...essentially we'll see when the Constitution is restored.

I got every red cent I have to my name on free trade, for the record. (Full disclosure, I'm a professional gambler.)

 

[osan]

But but Obama told me dat Automatic Teller Machine terk mah jerb!

You mean "audamaddic telluh m'sheen".

Learn to spell Amerkin', dammit.

Oh wait... I meant Indonesian.

Oh wait... I really meant Kenyan.

Oh wait... DOH...

 

[osan]

Something occurred to me...is this in the Constitution other than interstate commerce (commerce between the states)? If this isn't in the Constitution...which I do not believe it is...then this is a state's issue, not federal. Therefore, you can be as protectionist as you want as long as you don't live in Ohio (and you can't do it against other states, per the interstate commerce clause). I'll watch your state flounder, while mine succeeds. 50 laboratories of experimentation, I say.

The outcome is already demonstrated. Some few years ago, the douches in NYC (yes, redundant I know) tried to do the tax NAZI shuffle on their own one Christmas season by setting up roadblocks at the Hudson River crossings and actually ransacking cars in search of merchandise purchased in NJ where there was a 3% sales tax. Those caught with NJ-bought goods were forced to pay the 8.25% NYC sales tax on top of that! What nerve. This went on for some weeks and the results were so poor, which is to say it cost the city millions to recover maybe a few tens of thousands, that the stupid bastards gave up.

Another aspect of this deal that was particularly disgusting was the fact that virtually every single one of the fag-sheep meekly obeyed the orders to allow their vehicles to be searched. I do not recall so much as a single case reported where a driver demanded a warrant. Revolting compliance.

People will generally follow he path of the greatest perceived economic advantage. What is greatest for Tom may not be the case for Dick and Harry.

essentially we'll see when the Constitution is restored.

When? You mean "if". It is far from a foregone conclusion.

 

[showpan]

If your only defenses are calling people neocons for advocating freedom, posting irrelavent numbers you don't even understand, and claiming all relevant numbers are made up, I think this is over.

And in typical neocon fashion, you offer no real facts, you misinterpret data, you offer insults instead of debate and you have simply exposed yourself in order to embellish the great lie. WTG.

 

[ProIndividual]

When? You mean "if". It is far from a foregone conclusion.

I agree...and since we only should debate this, really, on the state level, is we are really Constitutionalists, we cannot advocate for the feds to govern the economy AT ALL.

And in typical neocon fashion, you offer no real facts, you misinterpret data,

Except we did show real facts, that you never disputed in any manner worth mentioning. Also, we didn't misintepret anything...as a matter of fact, we showed CLEARLY how you misinterpretted information YOU provided.

It's sad when these dogmatists implode before their egos do. It's okay buddy, you can be wrong and not die. Trust me!

And Showpan...quit calling free market capitalists "neocons". We aren't, at all. I'm waaaaaay farther to the libertarian side than you are, I'm positive of it. Libertarians aren't pro-war, neo-Trotskyist leftists, who think deficits "don't matter", that the welfare state is great (just not when they speak in public), and government is to be used to legislate morality.

Just because neocons are RIGHT on ONE issue, it doesn't mean you can damn everyone who agrees with that one point.

Hitler took baths...you Nazi bath taker!

See how stupid that is?

It's called "guilt by association"...it's a Marxist propaganda model. Read Marx, or just wikipedia "propaganda", and you'll see I'm right. Stop using informal logical fallacies, like "appeal to antiquity or tradition", or anecdotes in place of evidence (like your pics of buildings), and Marxist propaganda models like "guilt by association" to make your points. They fail every logical test in an intelligent conversation. They only make sense if you haven't taken high school debate (class).

Thank you very much.

 

[showpan]

Look, you haven't actually shown any "facts" to support your theory because there is none. That's all "free trade" is...a theory... because you would have to go back in time when data was not even recorded. All you have done is embellish neocon lies to support your theory. I am not going to hop on board with you because the neocons have destroyed this country and if they are for a particular policy, then I will guarantee that it is only to screw us, they are not for "free markets"....please stop kidding yourself and neocon NAFTA payed companies to move. We have been neoconned....snookered.

You keep using the argument about Doctors and Lawyers but they are not service jobs...they are professions that require a degree. You cannot compare a traditional service employee with that of a professional...lol...the only reason they have tried to rewrite history is to make it look like wages are higher. This was all written down in the federalist papers and the anti federalist papers over 200 years ago for people who do not get it.

Fact...the constitution provides for Tariffs on imports to fund the government. The founding fathers also viewed them as necessary to protect our business from unfair foreign competition. Unfair would be countries that manipulate what their currency is worth and those who pay their workers in rice. They worked because this country had tremendous growth right up until 1913 when the FED took over, tariffs were reduced and personal taxes were seized. The FED caused the depression...not tariffs. We have also been in a state of perpetual war since that time which only keeps Keynesian theorists afloat.

When reading charts, you must first look at who made them and where was the data obtained such as that one that keeps getting posted about production vs jobs. That chart is very deceptive because it does not say production of what....does it include farming, durable goods, non durable goods, what is it actually measuring? We don't know and frankly I don't care because the person who made it is a FED and we all know what the FED does...they lie and they steal!!! There isn't any government data that shows what he drew in there except for job losses which have been fudged to make it look as if there aren't as many. Go to any government site and look up production, it is broken down into categories by industry. If you are going to prove a point without using the only (I would say reliable but this is the government we are talking about) resource that actually measures data...the government, then how can you claim to refute anything? Here is one you posted about unemployment which is close but only shows the U-3 which does not reflect true unemployment. Again U-3 is used because it is very deceptive and has been manipulated to make it look better than it is. When you compare charts to one another, you can get a pretty good picture of what has happened like that idiot tried to do in your production chart.

Ok, See that spike in 1980-1985, when that happened Reagan increased defense spending in order to lower the unemployment that was getting our of control. I know this happened, I was there. Now look at this chart:

See, the spike in spending coincides with the decrease of unemployment. It wasn't "deregulation" because deregulation was a myth...he merely changed the rules which effectively shifted money from one sector to another. The FED also effects unemployment along with a host of other things. Unemployment was only able to level off after all their meddling because we had industries that were still standing....well guess what, if this country were to cut all defense spending right now, we are done....because we do not have industry to save us any longer.
Industrial jobs not only drove this countries growth, it also funded our government. They are now laying off and cutting everything. While I agree, less government is good, more unemployment and cutting everything to fund their wars is treasonous. This country needs to return to it's roots and stop bickering about untested theories.
The money trickles up...not down....this has been proven now for 30 years.

 

[Carson]

I've passed over the headline many times and all I can think is do you mean all barriers like cash and everyone just give anyone anything they want anywhere.

That would lead to a lot of waste.


Then again I think of the old saying is the drug trade is the last bastion of free enterprise.


Sometime I do favor the idea of protecting our industries by different means. Then other times I think if someone is dumping on the market it is time to fold up and stock up on the stuff being dumped.

It can be very dangerous though as I'm sure many of you have noticed. If we get in trouble, sticks and stones better be enough because it is all we will have for a while.

 

[Fox McCloud]

You invalidate nothing...still. Production numbers have been fudged to protect the guilty. Making mass amounts of Big Macs do not count. It's jobs that count....and if you eliminate the fuzzy math, there is actually more jobs lost than actually reported. Your misunderstanding of how to read statistics and apply them to (face) reality is one of the problems this country faces and why neocons are still in power.

You've pretty much outlined why I haven't contributed a lot to this topic---others have done just as good of a job or better than I could and yet you just chuck things like this out here as if it completely invalidates all the figures, arguments, and logic. Obviously, this goes against your worldview, so your first reaction is to deny it/suggest its tarnished---then you paradoxically go on to suggest that we're looking at the figures incorrectly. Which is it? Are the figures wrong or are we---or are you just throwing random things out there (including the first things you can google+find that go against free trade) and hope something sticks?

 

[ProIndividual]

Showpan...lol. I will just say this:

You have been utterly destroyed on this thread...just stop.

Fact...the constitution provides for Tariffs

As it provided for slavery as well. Neither is moral or economically intelligent (or beneficial). Why do you hate property rights so much?

Ok, See that spike in 1980-1985,

I see a trend ending there, that started as an uptrend in about 1971 (when we came off the gold standard, what a coincidence!). Notice the period you claim is so bad, the trend ends, and starts downward...lol. You are too easy dude. It again spikes in 2008, due to the Fed Reserves bubble popping. This works totally against the fake argument you're making. Thanks for the help though.

And military spending needs cut like everything else...how does that reflect on free trade badly? It reflects on your system of protectionism badly, as Hamilton and John Hay wanted to use military FORCE to pry open foreign markets, but not to reciprocate. It caused more than one war, btw. Again, dropping your delusions, anmd reading what we wrote and linked that disproves your BS isn't fatal. Just come one over to the side with all the facts on figures on their side; our side; free trade. We welcome you with open arms. All you have to do is stop being a dogmatist who is obviously beaten, and wrong.

Also, military jobs don't create wealth...so how is this any different than any other govt job? It consumes wealth, and drags the economy, not vice versa. All FDR did was kill the otherwise unemployed by employing them in the military. Any capital syphoned off to govt jobs that produce NO wealth cannot be good for the economy. If we cut defense spending now, and the taxes that fund it, it would less than 2 years before we had sufficient employmwent numbers for our vets in the private sector. You are suffering from a fallacy I alredy linked you to: the Broken Window Fallacy. You are looking at the "seen" in Bastiat's parable, not the "unseen". The "seen" is the unemployment caused by letting troops out of the military...the "unseen" is the jobs that same capital creates when used MORE efficiently by the private market when not syphoned off through theft (cough, cough, I mean tax).

Try reading all our posts and links man...you'd save yourself embarrassment.

And again, money doesn't "trickle up" or "down"...we all got wealthier until the collapse...as we said b4, your stagnant or falling wages are erroneous...total real (accounted for inflation) compensation is what measures this...and you got more more more until 2008, all classes, period. Stop lisatening to libtards, they don't know what they're talking about. They just cherry pick stats like you're doing now.


And again, this is state's issue, as economics isn't in the Constitution...tariffs may be, but so was slavery...so that needs to end. Allow states to deal with economics on their own. Then you can kill your states economy all you like with protectionism, I won't care. And once for all, we'll see who's right. Only state i care about is Ohio, my state. You can destroy your state as long as it is any of the other 49. If this isn't a good compromise for you, then oh well, because you're just flatly WRONG anyway.

 

[Fox McCloud]

Only state i care about is Ohio, my state. You can destroy your state as long as it is any of the other 49. If this isn't a good compromise for you, then oh well, because you're just flatly WRONG anyway.

As a fellow Ohioan, I feel I can comment on this....sadly, it seems Ohio is pretty good at destroying itself....as far as economic freedom goes, anyway =T

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

You keep using the argument about Doctors and Lawyers but they are not service jobs...they are professions that require a degree.

Look, it's pretty simple. They provide a SERVICE to other people that's why they're SERVICE JOBS & aside from that, how does it support "tariffs are good" argument? It does NOT.

Fact...the constitution provides for Tariffs on imports to fund the government. The founding fathers also viewed them as necessary to protect our business from unfair foreign competition.

This is the problem with the "tariffers" here (so VERY FEW that are here, I'm glad most here already understand how they're unfair). They think that just because Founders were right about a lot of things, means that they were right about everything, this is just pure dogmatic behavior.

They look at the Constitution & see "tariffs" & they go "oh yeah, that's what's wrong with America today, we don't've enough tariffs" & think that that's the solution to making America better but don't ponder over the fact that things like high regulations & high taxation, minimum-wage laws are what's hurting America & getting rid of these things in itself will make America strong again, even without the tariffs but then dogmatists aren't in the habit of using reason & logic anyway.

The belief that tariffs are a mode of "external taxation" is even more foolish.

Unfair would be countries that manipulate what their currency is worth and those who pay their workers in rice.

It's a really weak position when one says that just because other countries are diluting their currencies & STEALING purchasing-power from their people that America should also mistreat its own people.

As I've explained elsewhere, the price of tariffs gets added to the eventual price that Americans will've to pay for the imported goods & since not everyone necessarily uses imported goods nor does everyone uses the same amount of imported goods, means that tariffs cause the government to tax all its citizens differently, it allows the government to NOT treat all its citizens EQUALLY & violates the principle that every citizen has an EQUAL right to their life, liberty & property.

Further, tariffs lead to corporatism as politicians & bureaucrats start using tariffs to benefit those businesses that are willing to bribe them which hurts the small businesses the most & unfairly hurts the market & the consumers/people. The fact that Civil war was caused by tariff-wars & turned United STATES of America into United EMPIRE of America should in itself be enough for any rational person to realize how destructive tariffs can be.

The "tariffers" are no different than socialists in that they support the belief that it's ok for the government to NOT treat all its citizens equally because as I've said, not all Americans pay the "tariff-tax" equally.

 

[ProIndividual]

As a fellow Ohioan, I feel I can comment on this....sadly, it seems Ohio is pretty good at destroying itself....as far as economic freedom goes, anyway =T

Arggggh, true.

 

[Southron]

I have a question for the globalists: what happens in a future war with China where they manufacture most of our defense-critical parts? Surrender?

 

[ProIndividual]

I have a question for the globalists: what happens in a future war with China where they manufacture most of our defense-critical parts? Surrender?

First of all, globalist means free market capitalist, not one world government conspiracy theory...okay? So quit using it as pejorartive, we don't call ourselves that. You keep doing it, and I'm gonna refer to you as "xenophobe mercantilist scumbag property rights hater"...k?

Sencond...China doesn't make our defense stuff...we do.

Third...why would any nation allow a competing power to see their tech? This doesn't even pass the common sense smell test.

Fourth...they have a puny economy compared to ours still...they can't catch up for decades, maybe a century, depending on estimates and growth. It would take like 80 years if we had neagtive growth for that 80 years and they had current growth rates. So stop worrying about China, they are making us rich, the government is making us poor by borrowing from them. Trade good, borrowing bad.

How may dumb questions are you going to ask? Why not google some these dumb questions? Why ask them in a manner that is obviously insulting?

You may not understand economics, but that's no reason to call free market capitalists "globalists", like it's some kind of backward ideology that means to achieve one world government or something. The "surrender?" at the end of the question clearly shows you think you know everything anyway, and this isn't an honest question to begin with.

Can we try covering up our dogmatism a little better next time?

If you want to ask rhetorical questions just for the sake of insulting people whose positions you do not understand, or refuse to educate yourself about, then go stand in front of the mirror and ask yourself questions.

Maybe then you'll actually listen to the answers and check some the gosh darn links provided.

(drop the mic) And I'm out!

 

[VBRonPaulFan]

hahaha +rep when i can

 

[ProIndividual]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?302475-Zombie-Forum-Responses&p=3387353#post3387353

Zombie: "Hey, free trade doesn't work, and you're a globalist naive silly person."

Me: "Mooooooaaaaaan globalist!!!"

 

[showpan]

You still haven't proven anything with actual facts like I have. Your opinion does not count as facts. Stop insulting me.
Facts...doctors and lawyers are professional jobs as defined by our founding fathers and any real university professor and the data that is collected by the census bureau. I have taken management and economic classes and your claims are completely false.
Fact, Reagan's unemployment was due to the loss of defense revenue, I was there, I was working...where were you?
You don't even know how to read your own chart that actual shows worker efficiency, it has nothing to do at all with manufacturing output...it only shows that American workers can produce more than they did in 1950.
Stop embarrassing yourselves.
Globalists = the idea that profits and share prices for people who do absolutely nothing are worth more than the actual people who do the work.
Stop insulting me and show me actual figures that support free trade...you can't because this country has never had free trade and has been on the downhill slide ever since tariffs were reduced and personal taxes replaced that revenue.

 

[ProIndividual]

You still haven't proven anything with actual facts like I have. Your opinion does not count as facts. Stop insulting me.
Facts...doctors and lawyers are professional jobs as defined by our founding fathers and any real university professor and the data that is collected by the census bureau. I have taken management and economic classes and your claims are completely false.
Fact, Reagan's unemployment was due to the loss of defense revenue, I was there, I was working...where were you?
You don't even know how to read your own chart that actual shows worker efficiency, it has nothing to do at all with manufacturing output...it only shows that American workers can produce more than they did in 1950.
Stop embarrassing yourselves.
Globalists = the idea that profits and share prices for people who do absolutely nothing are worth more than the actual people who do the work.
Stop insulting me and show me actual figures that support free trade...you can't because this country has never had free trade and has been on the downhill slide ever since tariffs were reduced and personal taxes replaced that revenue.

This is what it's come to. Anti-free market capitalists, anti-property rights, anti-reason, anti-wealth, anti-growth, anti-jobs...for the sake of nostalgia, dogmatism, and other assorted nonsense.