Disturbing Discussion Before Class

[smtwngrl]

What they need to realize is that the only freedoms we have are the ones we claim. If we give up freedoms, and allow things that shouldn't be, it only sets the stage for them to take even more freedoms.

If your friends didn't know about the airport scanners, chances are that they don't know about things like NDAA, and other bad bills being pushed, like the Enemy Expatriation Act.

If they still don't get it, perhaps they need to be educated by reading something written by someone who has lived in an unfree country, and sees some of the same things happening here.

There was a thread here awhile back from someone who had written on his Facebook page about why he supported Ron Paul. He told what it was like living in the country he had come from, and it was enough to make anyone think.

Your friends need to realize it is all about one question: Is the government the master, or are the people the master? The people are supposed to be the master.

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty; when the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

 

[singe22]

I came to my senses and resigned from TSA last year. It truely is a mess and i think private security would do a better job because not all the employee's took things as serious.

But i dont know what pictures you saw, but nobody can see your private parts in the flesh at TSA. If someone has told you to take off clothing down to being naked then they goofed in policy. Officers are not supposed to do a grabbing motion, everything is suppossed to be a pat on normal areas and slide on what is called sensitive areas.

On occasion you get people who just wigg out and start undressing when nobody has told them to do so and thats when the cameras start flashing or videos to feed these radical ideas.

I"m not in favor of government run security but i can assure you nobody on the ground at TSA has thinking mentality of "Facist Police State Officers".

 

[affa]

Well, some strangers seeing odd images of your body really doesn't matter. Even our government doing it doesn't really matter. The naked body scanners don't directly rob us, and they don't directly injure us (I say "directly" in each case because the machines do rob us, and probably do harm us). There is no apparent, direct harm in any way. It's easy to not care about this.

But that doesn't mean subjecting the populace to this is right. It doesn't mean this security theater is legal or even that it makes us safer. For me, this is a matter of principle. And because of that, I agree with you. I'll go for the pat-down every time for the same reason Good Will Hunting always picked the wrench - "Because f^&k them." The government has no right to be doing this. That is the problem. People who don't care about the law and what government can and cannot do, will not care about things like this. That's just the way it is.

Yes, it all matters.

 

[otherone]

80 % of the people throughout history are born with a mentality of a serf, 10 % are born as freedom fighters, 10 % are born as sociopaths with the desire to control the rest of the 90 %.

My relationship to power and authority is that I'm all for it. People need somebody to watch over them. Ninety-five percent of the people in the world need to be told what to do and how to behave.
Arnold Schwarzenegger

 

[EBounding]

People don't care because the TSA is an "Authority Figure". If you asked to see them naked, they would be horrified. But as long as you are an "authority figure", everything's justified.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I don't find this surprising at all, most people can only be passionate about a few issues - for example, some people are very passionate about the environment, yet if they spoke about their concerns on this board, they'd either be ignored, humiliated or attacked as "disinfo agents".

Similarly when libertarians talk about eroding civil liberties, they are usually ignored or dismissed as "conspiracy kooks".

Most people, including libertarians, focus on one or two issues, and deliberately play down the concerns of others. In order to create a more humane society, we'll have to move past this stage, and really face the fact that sometimes concerns conflict, and that we don't need to downplay concerns that conflict with the ones we care about.

Most issues are actually interconnected, but people focus on what they care about, and are either apathetic or downright insulting to the ones they don't care about.

That guy doesn't know what he's talking about. He says "the free market economists think more growth, more stuff, and 9 billion people going shopping is the best we can do."

That's a Keynesian position, not a free market position. He's a fear monger with a bit of positive spin. He's still trying to motivate people with the lie of climate change.

 

[soulcyon]

Well this is basically what powers the Mainstream Media - fear mongering. MSM understands people don't care, so they throw all this scary shit in their face, take over populus media channels and propogate the scare tactic even further. It's hard to find a way to wake people up without scaring them.

 

[otherone]

People don't care because the TSA is an "Authority Figure". If you asked to see them naked, they would be horrified. But as long as you are an "authority figure", everything's justified.

Milgram proved that 50 years ago.

 

[Romulus]

Sounds like there are some cowards in your class... thats all it comes down to. They are afraid to push back.

 

[cdc482]

Yesterday I got to class early and saw a few other students sitting there. Now, these other students I have gotten to know pretty well, while in class. You know, class "friends" that you don't really hang out with outside of class? Yeah, those kind.

Anyway, for Spring Break I am going back to Tampa, FL to see my friends. I told them how I was going to "opt out" of any random questions from the TSA and opt out of the screeners (whatever they are called). I said to them, "I'd rather get a pat down."

One of the girls said that she used to work for JetBlue and that she cannot stand the TSA, that a lot of them are just pieces of shit. She said that they don't know what the hell they are doing. I went on to explain to them that the screeners can see right through their clothes. They didn't believe me, so I found a picture on my phone and showed it to them. The former JetBlue girl was shocked.

She said, "That is why I am voting for Ron Paul!" She has seen me with my R3VOLution shirt on and my bag pack pin. I go, "exactly, good!" She responded with, "How can they do this? Isn't this against the law? Invasion of my privacy?" I just looked at her and she knew the answer.

So the other two were just sitting there, listening. I look at the other guy (there is a total of four; two girls, two boys) and he says, "I don't care. They can check out my junk." But, I believe he was just screwing around. So, I turned to the girl next to me and said, "Doesn't this piss you off?" To which she replied, "No, whatever. I don't care. They can check out my flat chest if they want." I reminded her that they can see E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. Her response, "I don't care."

I was so let down, I practically became speechless. I wanted to go on this whole rant but had to study a little before the quiz.

I am truly just astonished at how many people out there just don't give a damn. They don't care that their rights are being stripped away. They don't seem to care or realize how bad things are and how much worse it's going to get.

The reason I posted this in grassroots central was because I think we need to try and wake some of these people up. There has to be something we can say that will force them to realize what exactly is going on. Maybe we can explain to them that their precious little reality shows will eventually come off the air because Big Sis will claim, "It has a negative effect on the brain." Then again, Big Sis would probably like to keep it on air to keep people dumbed down.

First, do you think we can turn these people over quickly enough to vote? Do you think it's too late? If we can, how should we go about this? What could I say to the two?

To be honest, idc either. But the principle of it is wrong. If other people don't want to do it for ANY reason, they shouldn't be forced to.

 

[Captain Shays]

If I may make a suggestion. Many of us here are quite saavy when it comes to making videos. I sometimes will go on youtube and just type in "police abuse authority". Trust me. You can sit there literally for hours watching the worse kinds of police abuse of authority.
PLus there are numerous cases where prosecutors lied, copps lied, mayors and Congressmen and Senators and presidents and everyone in between lied. There are probably millions of people who have spent serious time in jails without ever breaking the law. There is Stossel's recent video called Everything Is illegal and then, there is America From Freedom To Fascism.
Just make some videos of these instances and give them to people. Show them everything from Rodney King to the little girls who were selling unauthorized lemonade to Hope Stephy having her clothes ripped off of her by five malle police officers and then forced to sit for hours naked in a jail cell when she was totally innocent.
Then finish it off with the stories of TSA screeners forcing beautiful women through their XRay machine numerous times and laughing and making rude comments.
If that doesn't wake them up just start shoveling dirt on them.

 

[Highstreet]

No Free Beer,

The only way to turn anyone, or wake them up is to find out the issues they do care about. Everyone has a few issues that are supremely important to them.

Then you need to be able to explain how Paul or simply a Liberty Stance would address those issues better than an authoritarian govt.

Good Luck!

 

[eduardo89]

I had an equally disturbing conversation with two cops here in Spain last night. It was about the domestic violence laws here in Spain. Basically it's like this:

Woman attack man: domestic violence if man files complaint, woman will be notified in 3-5 days, has to make a statement, court decides whether a crime has been committed

Woman says man attacks her, no evidence, just her word: man is arrested for hate crime, mandatory 24 hours in custody, police records created (including fingerprints, DNA, pictures), next morning gets 15 minutes with a lawyer and then is brought to the "Violence Against Women" court where his trial starts and he has to prove his innocence.

The woman officer told me she supports that law because women arent as physically strong as men and therefore men can attack them more easily. I object saying the law shouldn't mention race, gender, age, religion, ect. A violent crime is a crime regardless who the victim is. The government shouldn't be making special laws for certain groups.

The male cop responded that he says the law is fair because laws have to adapt themselves to the situation at hand. I replied that the law can't be made where it violate the rights of another person (right to a fair trial, presumption of innocence, right to face your accuser, etc)

The cops replied: "it's just our job to enforce the law, even if it's unfair, it's not our job to protect people from that"

I shut up before the tased me.

That's disturbing.

 

[otherone]

I had an equally disturbing conversation with two cops here in Spain last night. It was about the domestic violence laws here in Spain.

Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.
C. S. Lewis

 

[3kgt]

I agree with the guy who said people simply don't connect the dots which is why you need to do it for them. I also agree with the guy who said you should bang the ron paul girl

 

[jmdrake]

Yesterday I got to class early and saw a few other students sitting there. Now, these other students I have gotten to know pretty well, while in class. You know, class "friends" that you don't really hang out with outside of class? Yeah, those kind.

Anyway, for Spring Break I am going back to Tampa, FL to see my friends. I told them how I was going to "opt out" of any random questions from the TSA and opt out of the screeners (whatever they are called). I said to them, "I'd rather get a pat down."

One of the girls said that she used to work for JetBlue and that she cannot stand the TSA, that a lot of them are just pieces of shit. She said that they don't know what the hell they are doing. I went on to explain to them that the screeners can see right through their clothes. They didn't believe me, so I found a picture on my phone and showed it to them. The former JetBlue girl was shocked.

She said, "That is why I am voting for Ron Paul!" She has seen me with my R3VOLution shirt on and my bag pack pin. I go, "exactly, good!" She responded with, "How can they do this? Isn't this against the law? Invasion of my privacy?" I just looked at her and she knew the answer.

So the other two were just sitting there, listening. I look at the other guy (there are a total of four; two girls, two boys) and he says, "I don't care. They can check out my junk." But, I believe he was just screwing around. So, I turned to the girl next to me and said, "Doesn't this piss you off?" To which she replied, "No, whatever. I don't care. They can check out my flat chest if they want." I reminded her that they can see E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. Her response, "I don't care."

Many of today's youth have been desensitized to invasions of privacy through "sexting", Facebook, MTV and "Girls gone bad on spring break". Both the people you were talking to may have flashed strangers at Madi Gras and have the cellphone video to prove it.

I was so let down, I practically became speechless. I wanted to go on this whole rant but had to study a little before the quiz.

I am truly just astonished at how many people out there just don't give a damn. They don't care that their rights are being stripped away. They don't seem to care or realize how bad things are and how much worse it's going to get.

The reason I posted this in grassroots central was because I think we need to try and wake some of these people up. There has to be something we can say that will force them to realize what exactly is going on. Maybe we can explain to them that their precious little reality shows will eventually come off the air because Big Sis will claim, "It has a negative effect on the brain." Then again, Big Sis would probably like to keep it on air to keep people dumbed down.

First, do you think we can turn these people over quickly enough to vote? Do you think it's too late? If we can, how should we go about this? What could I say to the two?

Ask them if they realize the underwear bomber was purposefully let on the plane by our government? That was admitted by Patrick Kennedy in congressional hearings.

Ask them if they realize that cavity searches are coming next because pat downs and current scanners can't detect suppository bombs.

Ask them if they are okay with their children been naked scanned. (Probably too young to have kids).

Ask them if they are aware that the GAO said the scanners wouldn't have stopped the underwear bomber.

Ask them if they realize there's better technology that would have stopped the underwear bomber that doesn't invade privacy. (GE's "entryscan" technology which just "sniffs" passengers for bomb residue.

Realize that some folks are idiots and have to be written off like bad debts. Be glad these two jokers are probably to apathetic to even vote.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't find this surprising at all, most people can only be passionate about a few issues - for example, some people are very passionate about the environment, yet if they spoke about their concerns on this board, they'd either be ignored, humiliated or attacked as "disinfo agents".

Similarly when libertarians talk about eroding civil liberties, they are usually ignored or dismissed as "conspiracy kooks".

Most people, including libertarians, focus on one or two issues, and deliberately play down the concerns of others. In order to create a more humane society, we'll have to move past this stage, and really face the fact that sometimes concerns conflict, and that we don't need to downplay concerns that conflict with the ones we care about.

Most issues are actually interconnected, but people focus on what they care about, and are either apathetic or downright insulting to the ones they don't care about.

I disagree. People around here consistently point out that the root of those problems is the State. It's almost always the trollish types who get bashed.

 

[Mr. Perfidy]

All due respect good people, I think that most of your suggestions are just going to alienate everyone in the class, and give the impression that the OP is a mental case or a jehova's witness. Some people do not give a damn. This is a principle I wrestle with in libertarian/anarchist circles, because the human race simply didn't evolve to be 100% autonomous individuals. It does not work this way- the fact that it takes 2 people to make a baby, or that a baby is entirely helpless for a good part of its life, should clue us into the fact that everyone is not supposed to be clint eastwood. Just leave their dumbasses alone.

I would argue, however, that what the guy said did not indicate a political position, but rather was meant to be a weiner insecurity innoculation comment. "I dont care if people see MY penis!" It has no weight whatsoever as a political statement or endorsement of policy; it just means that he has internalized his defeat so profoundly, from the million clues in his environment, and from observing that all of the people with all of the stuff that he wants just SHUT THE FUCK UP AND DO WHAT THEY ARE TOLD. They both just sound to me like they were saying, "well I have no power whatsoever to change or affect it in any meaningful way, and in that position, talking shit on it just hurts you anyway. I do not like the lash, therefore I comply."

We are not dealing with political opinions and discussions of ideas- we are fighting a battle against a psychological condition. People do not feel like they have any power over their own body; their psychology then adapts and experiences life differently.

 

[Paulitics 2011]

I think it's definitely a lot more of a hassle for women than men, to be honest. Ask them how they'd feel if they had daughters or a wife going through the scanners and pat-downs.

 

[PolicyReader]

I'm painting with really broad strokes here but for collage kids bring up SOPA/PIPA when you talk about censorship/privacy (in legal standings they do interrelate)
If they don't know of SOPA just ask them what life would be like without youtube, wikis, twitter, facebook, and google.

You can also point out (assuming they have cell or smart phones) that none of their phone use is protected except the actual voice calls. Meaning because of weak privacy laws your location, your text message, your sms message (including any photos or video), are all able to be accessed by government and businesses at will (not that the local pretzel stand will have/be able to access them, but there aren't any legal barriers).
Also e-mails are all unprotected if stored online for more than 18 months (so if you use hotmail, yahoo, gmail, etc and keep e-mails for your records personal or professional those can be looked through without legal justification). <-- If they think that's try and actually *do* watch reality tv or do the 'celebrity gossip' thing you can point out someone could leak their personal information/messages and there's little to nothing they could do about it.

If they're into dramas get them to watch Good night and good luck that will connect with some who wouldn't listen to reasoned arguments.

The core aspect to connect with people who have little to no political interest is to talk to them directly about issues that effect them, better if it effects their day to day lives and explain how it negatively effects their day to day life. It won't work in every case (especially right away) but it does get people thinking and the more they think the more they understand (and ask questions). The other great thing about opening eyes, even if it's just a little, is that the more individuals understand the faster the word will spread.

2c