Discussion of Working inside the GOP

[cajuncocoa]

And the fact that they know that is part of the reason we've been so marginalized at caucuses and primaries. Ie, we really don't like you, we just want to use you to get elected.

Duh!

 

[Peace&Freedom]

While I am sure there are some well-intentioned people that may run on a CP or LP ticket, history has proven that they do not have the ability to win office at the state or federal level. With each of us only having a limited amount of time and money to devote to a candidate we need to make the best use of our resources.

Agreed, but running on the CP or LP lines to win office is not what I suggested as an alternative. The main resources that have helped the movement get our candidates elected, or made them competitive instead of just educational candidacies, have been a NATIONAL mailing list, internet-based networking, a bank of non-aligned or LP/CP activists, the meet-up groups, the CFL PAC, concepts like the money bomb, all of which were independent of the regular big party infrastructure. The major political parties are just tools to get elected, correct, but the main reason to run on their lines is because most districts are hardwired to be safe Democratic or Republican seats, not because of their internal resources. We can utilize either major party situationally to our purposes without making ourselves dependent on those resources.

That is mainly what I mean by "independent," as it does not have to rely on that structure to win. It means not playing politics within that structure to negotiate access to the resources, and not being vulnerable to compromise when the big PACs and donors offer billion dollar perks to the elected candidate's district (or millions to the candidate directly). If we proceed separate from an official party and lose races, we still have a movement to carry on with. If we proceed joined at the hip to the enemy, we stand to not just lose elections anyway, but become disintegrated as a movement as well. Like all the others.

 

[Bastiat's The Law]

Small correction: I'm not a guy.

I stand corrected. A Yorkie dog named cocoa.

 

[Bastiat's The Law]

And the fact that they know that is part of the reason we've been so marginalized at caucuses and primaries. Ie, we really don't like you, we just want to use you to get elected.

As opposed to holding a third party caucus at the local Olive Garden? What's the point of electing someone to wear a Burger King crown for a day? Those in power would love nothing more than if we made ourselves irrelevant again and disappeared off the political scene. The Liberty movement is currently electing Federal House seats, United State Senate seats. Chairmanship and all kinds of positions within the party hierarchy. State House and Senate seats are being targeted by hundreds of liberty candidates. What Ron Paul suggested is working, we're having influence and impact. You guys have absolutely nothing that can compare to the results we're having.

 

[Bastiat's The Law]

Agreed, but running on the CP or LP lines to win office is not what I suggested as an alternative. The main resources that have helped the movement get our candidates elected, or made them competitive instead of just educational candidacies, have been a NATIONAL mailing list, internet-based networking, a bank of non-aligned or LP/CP activists, the meet-up groups, the CFL PAC, concepts like the money bomb, all of which were independent of the regular big party infrastructure. The major political parties are just tools to get elected, correct, but the main reason to run on their lines is because most districts are hardwired to be safe Democratic or Republican seats, not because of their internal resources. We can utilize either major party situationally to our purposes without making ourselves dependent on those resources.

That is mainly what I mean by "independent," as it does not have to rely on that structure to win. It means not playing politics within that structure to negotiate access to the resources, and not being vulnerable to compromise when the big PACs and donors offer billion dollar perks to the elected candidate's district (or millions to the candidate directly). If we proceed separate from an official party and lose races, we still have a movement to carry on with. If we proceed joined at the hip to the enemy, we stand to not just lose elections anyway, but become disintegrated as a movement as well. Like all the others.

Ron Paul found success and was able to ignite this movement because he got into nationally televised debates within a major party. If it wasn't for that 99.99% wouldn't be here and this forum wouldn't exist either. It has largely nothing to do with what you said. Our candidates need to have a realistic chance at winning for people to passionately volunteer and donate millions of dollars. That is where everything you discussed above crashes into the wall of reality.

Ron Paul is the greatest political figure in our lifetime to have run for the Presidency. And even though he has all these wonderful attributes they would've went unnoticed if he ran under a third party label. Same with Rand, Thomas Massie, and Justin Amash. You could be the greatest person in the world and it amounts to squat if you don't have an elevated platform for your ideas. Case in point, take the exchange between Dr. Paul and Rudy Giuliani. That moment made Ron Paul. Those moments are only possible within a major party.

 

[Natural Citizen]

As opposed to holding a third party caucus at the local Olive Garden? What's the point of electing someone to wear a Burger King crown for a day? Those in power would love nothing more than if we made ourselves irrelevant again and disappeared off the political scene. The Liberty movement is currently electing Federal House seats, United State Senate seats. Chairmanship and all kinds of positions within the party hierarchy. State House and Senate seats are being targeted by hundreds of liberty candidates. What Ron Paul suggested is working, we're having influence and impact. You guys have absolutely nothing that can compare to the results we're having.

Every time I read one of your antagonistic scribbles, I'm reminded of Lawrence Odonnell.

 

[cajuncocoa]

As Kenny Rogers once sang "you gotta know when to fold 'em"

We built this movement from Ron Paul's exposure in the GOP...yes, it's good that he participated in debates (when they allowed him to speak).

And in return our votes were stolen, our delegates cheated (and some even got their hips and fingers broken and/or dislocated by GOP thugs).

The GOP doesn't deserve to have us continue in their ranks. If you build a new Ron Paul party based on this r3volution, we will follow. If you stay in the GOP, some of us will watch from the sidelines...waiting to ascertain that any candidate that wears the "Liberty" label is worthy before donating.

We came, we saw, we used the GOP....time to fold 'em.

 

[romancito]

Double post - please excuse.

 

[romancito]

As Kenny Rogers once sang "you gotta know when to fold 'em"

We built this movement from Ron Paul's exposure in the GOP...yes, it's good that he participated in debates (when they allowed him to speak).

And in return our votes were stolen, our delegates cheated (and some even got their hips and fingers broken and/or dislocated by GOP thugs).

The GOP doesn't deserve to have us continue in their ranks. If you build a new Ron Paul party based on this r3volution, we will follow. If you stay in the GOP, some of us will watch from the sidelines...waiting to ascertain that any candidate that wears the "Liberty" label is worthy before donating.

We came, we saw, we used the GOP....time to fold 'em.

That's exactly what I say. People think the future will be like the past. No. Tomorrow will not be like today. The GOP is the Fall of Republicanism - Neoromanism, yuk. To that I say, run, run as fast as you can from that. Lets make democracy work for the young-ens.

Basta ya de la absoluta hipocrecia.

 

[Natural Citizen]

As Kenny Rogers once sang "you gotta know when to fold 'em"

We built this movement from Ron Paul's exposure in the GOP...yes, it's good that he participated in debates (when they allowed him to speak).

And in return our votes were stolen, our delegates cheated (and some even got their hips and fingers broken and/or dislocated by GOP thugs).

The GOP doesn't deserve to have us continue in their ranks. If you build a new Ron Paul party based on this r3volution, we will follow. If you stay in the GOP, some of us will watch from the sidelines...waiting to ascertain that any candidate that wears the "Liberty" label is worthy before donating.

We came, we saw, we used the GOP....time to fold 'em.

Some of us who are old enough to have learned a thing or three through the years understand that the fight for liberty started long before there ever was a Ron Paul in the mix. And although he's been a shining star in waking others up it must also be noted that there be wolves out there who would jump on his bandwagon. Already, we have seen language from some of these folks that once elevated to some meaningful position of relevance decide to forget where they came from...assuming they are actually a part of the TEA Party that was as opposed to the instant stuff that is so popular these days.

To sit here and separate folks with the old us and you language simply reflects the days of the GOP speaking of the libertarian. It also makes one wonder just how quickly the ways of the establishment GOP rub off on some who are placed in a position of relevance.

My biggest gripe in the matter thus far as that I in no way want a tea party patriot mindset playing the bringer of liberty role. Especially after debating them for years.

 

[tbone717]

In all honesty, I am tired of the detractors. Real solutions are needed, rather than theory. We need people who are willing to do something, not simply talk about doing something. We need people that are willing to get out from behind their computers and get out and meet real people. We need people that are able to engage in political discourse with people that may have different views than they do, not people who want to sit around with like-minded people and complain about how bad things are.

So to keep the focus on the task at hand I wanted to throw out a few steps that any one us can do to be politically active and continue this long standing plan to reform the GOP. Feel free to add some thoughts to this:

1) Run for committeeman/woman. The importance of this office has been discussed before, so I don't need to add much to that.

2) Run for school board, township office, or other municipal seats. While these offices govern locally, those that hold these seats do have the ability to network in their community which can be beneficial for campaigning for those running for state and federal seats.

3) Volunteering for the local GOP. For those who are unable to run for an elected seat, there are many ways you can still be involved at the county level. Most larger counties do have volunteer opportunities available for fundraising events, voter registration drives, etc. Again, this is a good way to meet people in your community and become someone who has influence over the electorate.

Any others?

 

[Natural Citizen]

In all honesty, I am tired of the detractors. Real solutions are needed, rather than theory. We need people who are willing to do something, not simply talk about doing something. We need people that are willing to get out from behind their computers and get out and meet real people. We need people that are able to engage in political discourse with people that may have different views than they do, not people who want to sit around with like-minded people and complain about how bad things are QUOTE]

Well. Don't go thinking folks cannot and do not engage. You're wrong about that. They do. In all of your wisdom to achieve public throne of sort I can see where it would be easy to neglect the discussion with the lady at the supermarket checkout trying to rub two nickels together for bread and milk for the kids. Or the chat with the neighbor out by the street in the morning while retreiving the newspaper. Or the parent sitting beside you at juniors tee ball game. Or the student debating on whether to take out an over priced loan for an education that will serve only those who made the buck off it since the old men who control infrastructure wish it to remain the same.

Don't get so full of yourself with aspects of life you may find to be...tiring. That's obtuse.

People engage. Every day of every week of every month all year long. And they'll continue. long after those cherished thrones become occupied. It's always been that way.

What are you going to do if these discouraged people of like mind, who do exist and who are the majority, decide that the idea of empowering more politicians in the same game is why things are the way they are and have been and they don't want to stand under and provide support for the very existence of the left right paradigm that they may feel forms the walls of the political pyramid pushing toward each other constantly with Hegelian talking points serving only to provide support for the fat cat who sits atop of it all?

Regular people are to that point. These "ordinary Americans" as the anointed ones have chosen to deem them. I've heard before that it's the delegates that support it all. That's just wrong in scope. That's not the case. Heck, the Mass. video is proof enough of that. They were fairly quick to jump right up onto the next level and fuse with one of two opposing forces that are the walls of that paradigm. Who is left on the bottom...still holding it up? The lady who left the store with just the loaf of bread? Which, btw, is a fraction of the weight it used to be. Still the same price though. Growth, I think she called it.

People engage, my friend. Make no mistake about it. Every day. And I suspect only a small fraction are well enough off to have a fireside chat about the shenanigans at the local Olive Garden as some may be so naive to imagine. That's no theory. It's a fact.

 

[Bastiat's The Law]

In all honesty, I am tired of the detractors. Real solutions are needed, rather than theory. We need people who are willing to do something, not simply talk about doing something. We need people that are willing to get out from behind their computers and get out and meet real people. We need people that are able to engage in political discourse with people that may have different views than they do, not people who want to sit around with like-minded people and complain about how bad things are.

So to keep the focus on the task at hand I wanted to throw out a few steps that any one us can do to be politically active and continue this long standing plan to reform the GOP. Feel free to add some thoughts to this:

1) Run for committeeman/woman. The importance of this office has been discussed before, so I don't need to add much to that.

2) Run for school board, township office, or other municipal seats. While these offices govern locally, those that hold these seats do have the ability to network in their community which can be beneficial for campaigning for those running for state and federal seats.

3) Volunteering for the local GOP. For those who are unable to run for an elected seat, there are many ways you can still be involved at the county level. Most larger counties do have volunteer opportunities available for fundraising events, voter registration drives, etc. Again, this is a good way to meet people in your community and become someone who has influence over the electorate.

Any others?

Great post. At some point the rubber has to meet the road. There's people making things happen, like yourself and Michael Moresco, out there in the real world and attaining real results. The detractors will forever be internet forum theorists; they'll never achieve anything of noteworthy substance because their ideas, to the extent they can be called that, are fundamentally flawed.

 

[Carlybee]

Great post. At some point the rubber has to meet the road. There's people making things happen, like yourself and Michael Moresco, out there in the real world and attaining real results. The detractors will forever be internet forum theorists; they'll never achieve anything of noteworthy substance because their ideas, to the extent they can be called that, are fundamentally flawed.

Sounds like baiting to me. Given that you have no clue what the "detractors" are out here doing or how they are participating, I would say it's also a very broad statement. Assuming that people who aren't "with you" must be internet trolls living in their momma's basement is not exactly the way to win people over. I'm beginning to wonder if some of you are teenagers with some of the reckless, immature "us or them" remarks that are being made. Perhaps some of you should take a class in how to recruit people or something because the way you are going about it is not working. Keep throwing it out there though...sooner or later something may stick..like when you toss a piece of spaghetti on the ceiling. Sometimes it sticks..sometimes it falls back down and lands on your face.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Great post. At some point the rubber has to meet the road. There's people making things happen, like yourself and Michael Moresco, out there in the real world and attaining real results. The detractors will forever be internet forum theorists; they'll never achieve anything of noteworthy substance because their ideas, to the extent they can be called that, are fundamentally flawed.

While I can agree that the process is all that we have in our current state and that it can work, I don't particularly agree that those who have been hit the hardest have a voice in the discussion at the next level after hearing dialogue from some recent delegates. Which is basically what I was saying. It's not like they don't know what Romney has been supporting. They do. He's very open about it. For this demograph to think that new faces in an established party will do anything to help them after they explicitely say they'll support the establishment politicians platform is absurd to them. You must agree with that at the very least.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Sounds like baiting to me. Given that you have no clue what the "detractors" are out here doing or how they are participating, I would say it's also a very broad statement. Assuming that people who aren't "with you" must be internet trolls living in their momma's basement is not exactly the way to win people over. I'm beginning to wonder if some of you are teenagers with some of the reckless, immature "us or them" remarks that are being made. Perhaps some of you should take a class in how to recruit people or something because the way you are going about it is not working. Keep throwing it out there though...sooner or later something may stick..like when you toss a piece of spaghetti on the ceiling. Sometimes it sticks..sometimes it falls back down and lands on your face.

I thought the old "they'll never achieve anything" gag was a hoot. It's not like some of us just opened up the old crackerjack box and "poof" you're a physicist. Some stuff takes a lot of time and hard work, you know. Whatever though. Was funny to read that.

 

[tbone717]

Great post. At some point the rubber has to meet the road. There's people making things happen, like yourself and Michael Moresco, out there in the real world and attaining real results. The detractors will forever be internet forum theorists; they'll never achieve anything of noteworthy substance because their ideas, to the extent they can be called that, are fundamentally flawed.

One of the things that may be helpful moving forward is the development of a master list of every electoral district in the country, so that liberty activists can see if their district has an open committee seat or make a determination of who the committeeman/woman currently is and where they stand on the political spectrum.

One of the reasons the GOP is so heavily dominated by neo-conservatives, is because the neo-conservatives ran for these seats and thus took control of the party. So a systematic approach of looking at each district and running a candidate for that seat would be a good way to evaluate our progress at the local level on a national scale.

Anyone up for the task of compiling that info? Maybe we can get one person from each state to work on their own state.

 

[romancito]

I thought the old "they'll never achieve anything" gag was a hoot. It's not like some of us just opened up the old crackerjack box and "poof" you're a physicist. Some stuff takes a lot of time and hard work, you know. Whatever though....

Yes, people like that think that birds, squirrels, ants and dear are not contributing to the Ron Paul campaign and are not contributing to the universe. Achieving is not as valuable as being true to nature. The worse part of achievers are the garbage, ill will and corrupting influence they spread.

 

[Peace&Freedom]

Ron Paul found success and was able to ignite this movement because he got into nationally televised debates within a major party. If it wasn't for that 99.99% wouldn't be here and this forum wouldn't exist either. It has largely nothing to do with what you said. Our candidates need to have a realistic chance at winning for people to passionately volunteer and donate millions of dollars. That is where everything you discussed above crashes into the wall of reality.

Ron Paul's 2008 and 2012 candidacies are a prime example of what I'm talking about. He ran a principled third party type campaign within a major party primary in a winnable situation, using grassroots resources outside of the mainstream GOP machine to succeed as much as he did. The only thing the GOP and the debates provided was a 'main-event' stage to get his message out, and the electoral college leverage to win the election if nominated. I think a consistent liberty candidate, if they had Paul's skills, could have done the same thing in the Democratic primaries. The grassroots can likewise draw from the rich bank of independent-minded principled liberty candidates inside and outside the GOP, or inside or outside a third party, to run in a major party primary when an opening is available to win. If the candidate gets access to the party's resources, that's gravy, but the husk of the effort should be based on the grassroots infrastructure, not the big party machine.

One of the reasons the GOP is so heavily dominated by neo-conservatives, is because the neo-conservatives ran for these seats and thus took control of the party. So a systematic approach of looking at each district and running a candidate for that seat would be a good way to evaluate our progress at the local level on a national scale.

The neo-cons are also a prime example of the independent concept. They have integrated or coordinated their resources to have a strong influence on policy and seats in BOTH MAJOR PARTIES, without being subordinate to either. Instead of the grassroots, in their case the power base is institutional, as it comes from the defense industry, neo-con think tanks, and the Israeli lobby, but the principle is the same. You can obtain more success based mainly on applying pressure on a major party from without it, than from being squished from within it.

 

[Natural Citizen]

The neo-cons are also a prime example of the independent concept. They have integrated or coordinated their resources to have a strong influence on policy and seats in BOTH MAJOR PARTIES, without being subordinate to either. Instead of the grassroots, in their case the power base is institutional, as it comes from the defense industry, neo-con think tanks, and the Israeli lobby, but the principle is the same. You can obtain more success based mainly on applying pressure on a major party from without it, than from being squished from within it.

What is also concerning is the fact that they may very well be leading where controlling the terms of controversy lay relevant to exposing the main stream media. What is frightening is that they are well on their way to theoretically exposing bs by simply running interference with even more bs. Problem, reaction, solution.

Of course, that's just an observation.