Detroiters Beat Man Suspected of Raping Down Syndrome Teen

[paulbot24]

What's with the knee-jerk reaction against vigilantism?

Let's say your neighborhood or multiple neighborhoods has a gang or multiple gangs that are always initiating violence. You can picture such a scenario easily since it is reality in many major cities.

Do you think the police and courts will solve this problem soon? Do you think they will ever solve it?


Do you think arming every other citizen not in those gangs and taking them out will solve it?


If you are being terrorized by a mafia, you and your neighbors have every right to take them out.


You'll probably agree with most of the above but deny that this instant wasn't the same in a smaller more direct scenario.

I agree with all of the above but I would not expect to ever be able to use this reasoning in any court if I did what they did and I really wouldn't expect the media to call it a "community effort" if I brought along a few neighbors to help me out. In a perfect libertarian world perhaps, but that is not what we have to work with. Just watch how quickly the media changes their tune when these guys are caught and charged. I bet they aren't called "concerned community members" then. Not guilty by reason of nobility will not fly and by then they'll be vilified as a bunch of bat-wielding vigilantes and the State will make an example out of them. If you're going to do it make damn sure you get away with it. Don't expect the media to have your back.

 

[Angel4Liberty]

Due Process.

Isn't everyone entitled to the Rights protected by the 6th Amendment?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Due Process.

Isn't everyone entitled to the Rights protected by the 6th Amendment?

Not according to some people in this thread.

 

[fr33]

Due Process.

Isn't everyone entitled to the Rights protected by the 6th Amendment?

Who shall we rely on to protect such rights? It's obvious the state isn't doing it.
There are better judges than the state. You can guess who they are.

 

[fr33]

I agree with all of the above but I would not expect to ever be able to use this reasoning in any court if I did what they did and I really wouldn't expect the media to call it a "community effort" if I brought along a few neighbors to help me out. In a perfect libertarian world perhaps, but that is not what we have to work with. Just watch how quickly the media changes their tune when these guys are caught and charged. I bet they aren't called "concerned community members" then. Not guilty by reason of nobility will not fly and by then they'll be vilified as a bunch of bat-wielding vigilantes and the State will make an example out of them. If you're going to do it make damn sure you get away with it. Don't expect the media to have your back.

Judging from the media stories we're being told about Detroit it wouldn't surprise me if these vigilantes were deputized afterwards. The local government seems to be crumbling.

 

[Cutlerzzz]

Vigilant Justice is justified if you know for fact he committed the crime and use proportionate force.

Forming an angry mob to attack a man who has not been found guilty, and none of them personally witnessed commit the crime is not justice. They have don't know whether or not he is guilty. The police had not dropped the charges either and very well may imprison him or find him not guilty.

Furthermore, Vigilante Justice is dangerous. Attacking a man with a bat is possibly retarded. If he was carrying he could have legally killed all of them. If you intend on seeking private justice, bring a gun and keep your bat separate. That doesn't mean that a bat can't be used, but attacking a guy with bats sounds like the kind of thing an emotional, irrational crowd would do in the heat of the moment.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

... the mechanical pursuit of justice.

The official justice system acknowledges that if a person did not personally see or hear an event, then the person's beliefs about the event are questionable. This is codified in Federal Rule of Evidence 602:

A witness may testify to a matter only if evidence is introduced sufficient to support a finding that the witness has personal knowledge of the matter....

It is codified further in the rule against hearsay testimony.

In practice, prosecutors work to get around this rule; but it still made a big difference when I was defending myself in court. Vigilantes could afford to keep in mind that if they did not personally see or hear something, they can't be 100% sure it happened.

 

[paulbot24]

Vigilantes could afford to keep in mind that if they did not personally see or hear something happen, they can't be 100% sure it happened.

Another thing to consider is the fact that the rape victim has Down's Syndrome. I'm not an expert on this, but several credible sources I've read so far talk about the condition's crippling cognitive effects, especially as it relates to what they call memory deficits, which inhibit accurate memory recall. Factor in the trauma and there is an even higher probability of error. What if it's the right residence but the wrong person, like a relative or friend staying there? The point is that you and all your friends might be wrong. The man hadn't even been charged yet. He probably also has friends or at least family. They might want their vigilante justice on you. They'll also feel equally justified. Are they?

 

[tod evans]

There's a whole bunch of "what-ifs" going on in this thread...

Many of them seem to revolve around an "angry mob" or some such..

The article describes conscientious neighbors frustrated with lack of performance by the local "Just-Us" department, not an "angry-mob".

This idea that justice can only be found in state approved and funded "courts of law" is ludicrous! These are the courts that write abusive cops and prosecutors free passes, these are the courts that regularly sentence pot growers to decades of imprisonment while sentencing child molesters to a year and some community service...

I say it's high time these members of the "Just-Us" system stood before a court of justice!

This group of neighbors, as described, weighed the evidence using their knowledge of the people involved, and after pleading with the "Just-Us" department to no avail, meted out the only form of justice they were capable of.

 

[paulbot24]

True. They are also capable of keeping their mouths shut about it. Why would you have friends of the family make statements about why "they" did it to the media in attempts to justify it? They might as well have stopped by the police station when they were finished talking to "help" the cops understand how their not doing their jobs left them no choice but to do it themselves. The presstitutes WILL turn on them like the ravenous wolves that they always are and the Just-us system will suddenly be looking very effective when they prosecute all of them. Christ people, if you insist on going vigilante, protect your identities and don't try to rationalize it by sobbing about the lousy police and your frustration. Just because you're ignoring the government's method of justice does not mean they will ignore yours.

 

[pcosmar]

Some here are not familiar with the story of Ken McElroy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_McElroy

McElroy was shot to death in broad daylight as he sat with his wife Trena in his pickup truck on Skidmore's main street. He was struck by bullets from at least two different firearms, in front of a crowd of people estimated as between 30 and 46. To date, no one has been charged in connection with McElroy's death.

The citizens decided to go to the tavern en masse. The bar soon filled completely. After McElroy finished his drinks, he purchased a six pack of beer, left the bar, and entered his pickup truck. While McElroy was sitting in his truck he was shot at several times and hit twice, once by a center fire rifle and once by a .22 rimfire rifle. In all, there were 46 potential witnesses to the shooting, including Trena McElroy, who was in the truck with her husband when he was shot. No one called for an ambulance

Nobody saw nothin'

An extensive Federal investigation did not lead to any charges.

Like it or not,,, Justice was served.. Though it was long overdue.

 

[angelatc]

Due Process.

Isn't everyone entitled to the Rights protected by the 6th Amendment?

Yeah, right. The Constitution. That's pretty funny.

 

[angelatc]

Vigilant Justice is justified if you know for fact he committed the crime and use proportionate force.

Forming an angry mob to attack a man who has not been found guilty, .

It appears he was found guilty by a jury of his peers.

 

[pcosmar]

Such as? Isn't the vigilante system more or less the same (just less organized) as the private law enforcement agencies proposed by anarchists and universally shunned on these forums by non-anarchists?

NO. These people are not mercenaries for hire.
They are the Community.

 

[angelatc]

NO. These people are not mercenaries for hire.
They are the Community.

This is just another example of how big government indoctrinates people. The judicial system has morphed into a code so complicated that it takes an advanced education to learn it all. And here we are, part of me included, insisting that we need government to protect us from our fellow citizens, even as it becomes clear that government could not care less about protecting us.

 

[Seraphim]

If I know who commit a rape and the police aren't doing anything - first chance I get his head is on a pike or he's hanging from a light post.

Notice I said KNOW. Without a shadow of doubt. Not maybe, not speculation. But if a girl I knew could finger her rapist without any hesitation and the police won't/can't do anything...I won't hesitate to do so myself given the opportunity.

There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, doing nothing would be wrong.

For an anarcho-capitalist type you sure are lending a lot of credibilty to a VERY broken justice system...that in the case of Detroit...is essentially non existent.

Detroit is exactly where vigilante justice is REQUIRED.

Now if the men with bats did not do their homework and beat the shit out of an innocent man - they are guilty themselves and will get what is coming to them.

If they did their homework and got the right guy. Justice served.

This was not a petty crime. It was a rape. Beat the shit out of the perp. Otherwise, more women in the hood will get raped.

'fraid I can't. I just don't agree with that. Vigilante justice is no more acceptable than a cop sentencing someone to death or beating by the roadside at a traffic stop. Y'all are really disappointing me today.

 

[Seraphim]

This.

"Mob" justice is rarely justice at all, but when the perp is KNOWN and authorities aren't/can't do jack shit...someone has to.

In the case of Detroit - this sort of thing is unsurprising. The police are nearly non existent. If the neighbours knew they had the rapist/right guy...wtf else are they suppose to do? Sit back until another of their women is raped?

I think there are exceptions to the "Vigilante Justice is bad" rule, and I'm not even the anarchist here...

 

[heavenlyboy34]

If I know who commit a rape and the police aren't doing anything - first chance I get his head is on a pike or he's hanging from a light post.

Notice I said KNOW. Without a shadow of doubt. Not maybe, not speculation. But if a girl I knew could finger her rapist without any hesitation and the police won't/can't do anything...I won't hesitate to do so myself given the opportunity.

There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, doing nothing would be wrong.

For an anarcho-capitalist type you sure are lending a lot of credibilty to a VERY broken justice system...that in the case of Detroit...is essentially non existent.

Detroit is exactly where vigilante justice is REQUIRED.

Now if the men with bats did not do their homework and beat the shit out of an innocent man - they are guilty themselves and will get what is coming to them.

If they did their homework and got the right guy. Justice served.

This was not a petty crime. It was a rape. Beat the shit out of the perp. Otherwise, more women in the hood will get raped.

Not really. The government courts typically do worse. As I clarified earlier in the thread, if someone is absolutely without a doubt guilty, I'm not bothered by people taking action themselves. The just-us system likely won't help. Conditionally, it's good that the community takes care of each other WRT justice.

And I would like vigilantism used to put the fear of God into the hearts of "authorities" of all types too. (and I didn't see anything in my posts that discounted or diminished the severity of the crime, btw)

 

[heavenlyboy34]

This.

"Mob" justice is rarely justice at all, but when the perp is KNOWN and authorities aren't/can't do jack shit...someone has to.

In the case of Detroit - this sort of thing is unsurprising. The police are nearly non existent. If the neighbours knew they had the rapist/right guy...wtf else are they suppose to do? Sit back until another of their women is raped?

This is what I was trying to say earlier^^

 

[tod evans]

It appears he was found guilty by a jury of his peers.

NO. These people are not mercenaries for hire.
They are the Community.

If more communities would accept responsibility for their own citizenry our nation would be well on the way to holding not just members of the "Just-Us" department accountable for their behavior, but also the politicians that empower them...