Democracy is not a dirty word -

Allow me to repost a link to Irwin Schiff's book "How an Economy Grows and Why It Doesn't":

"If a vote costs nothing it's worth nothing."
"The ignorant and irresponsible will vote if it's free, and such votes are dangerous!"
"Let the stupid and who-cares citizens stay home! If he pays to vote he'll pay more attention to the issues and the candidates."

I'd be more interested in ensuring a form of government that protects life, liberty and personal property than being sure that a poor 18 year old has a chance to vote for somebody who promises to redistribute somebody else's property. I think a poll tax would better accomplish that.

So you automatically assume any poor 18 year old will want to take other peoples money? Have you ever considered the possibility that they would rather vote for opportunity, and not hand outs? I guess you think anybody with an income below the poverty line must be an immoral thief.

That first Schiff quote sounds neat, but it makes no sense. I didn't pay for my vote, except through taxes, and it definitely stood for something.

As for the next two quotes, tough shit. There are people who stay informed on the issues who are also poor. If you get some ignorant votes, then that's a problem the society must deal with, like with better education and so on. Cutting poor people out of the situation doesn't help, and might actually make it worse.

EDIT: And you totally missed my point about the 18 year old from orange county. He can be totally ignorant, but he gets to vote because his parents are loaded. Seriously dude, think outside your box for two seconds, you know I'm right.
 
Yeah, and if you disenfranchise those without a sufficient amount of property, property will be the only thing that gets protected.... Life and liberty will be subject to groups like the KKK. We've been there, remember?

Property ownership is probably better in this sense than the poll tax. I'd be more up on the poll tax if with it we eliminated income, property and inheritance taxes.

I apologize ... why Krugerrand likes the poll tax is a distraction from the thread.

Remember, the popular vote is to be distrusted.
 
What kind of property? Some modest people like to rent. They would rather save their money and travel the world instead of hunker down in one spot. I'd say somebody that does that is smart, and their vote would be very valuable.

Also, this is not a distraction from the thread, we're talking about democracy, and discussing who gets to vote in our country would be very relevant.
 
So you automatically assume any poor 18 year old will want to take other peoples money? Have you ever considered the possibility that they would rather vote for opportunity, and not hand outs? I guess you think anybody with an income below the poverty line must be an immoral thief.

That first Schiff quote sounds neat, but it makes no sense. I didn't pay for my vote, except through taxes, and it definitely stood for something.

As for the next two quotes, tough shit. There are people who stay informed on the issues who are also poor. If you get some ignorant votes, then that's a problem the society must deal with, like with better education and so on. Cutting poor people out of the situation doesn't help, and might actually make it worse.

Krugerrand likes either a poll tax or a property ownership requirement to vote. I apologize for the thread distraction.

I brought the ownership issue up because it used to be the law of the land. It illustrates that 1 - the Constitution was not written with the intention of making a democracy. It was written with a distrust of the majority. (and a distrust of everything else) 2 - as we have eliminated the checks that were in place on the popular vote we have seen negative consequences. Senators don't look out for their states' rights. Presidents run for election by promising free drugs to seniors or health insurance for the uninsured. All paid for with somebody else's money.
 
... the Constitution and the Laws are derived from the consent of the governed, put in place by elected representatives ...

That's interesting, how does that work exactly? I'm not consenting to be taxed right now. I guess it's the consent of the majority, eh? So, if two theives mug a guy in a back alley, he consented! Makes all the sense in the world. Theft and slavery are ok when the majority support it.

Then there's that nasty detail that only roughly 12,000 out of a population of 3,000,000 were allowed to vote on the constitution (some white male landholders), which would forcibly confiscate wealth from the other 2,988,000.

Then, the fact that the decendents of the 3M are also subjected to it without any choice in the matter at all.

Consent my ass.
 
If all men are good, they need no government.

If all men are evil, they should not have government because we all know what happened when the evil Hitler came to power.
 
How the hell can you have unrestrained democracy in a country that hasn't had an honest election in 30 years?

Do you really think shit would be different if the elections were not rigged? We've been going down hill for a lot longer than thirty years. All the Republican and Democratic candidates in the primaries are scumbag status quo types, democracy just allows all of these amoral characters to compete at who is the best liar/manipulator and who can siphon off the most taxpayer monies to special interest groups.

We would have been just as screwed had we Gore or Kerry for President, you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.
 
That's interesting, how does that work exactly? I'm not consenting to be taxed right now. I guess it's the consent of the majority, eh? So, if two theives mug a guy in a back alley, he consented! Makes all the sense in the world. Theft and slavery are ok when the majority support it.

Then there's that nasty detail that only roughly 12,000 out of a population of 3,000,000 were allowed to vote on the constitution (some white male landholders), which would forcibly confiscate wealth from the other 2,988,000.

Then, the fact that the decendents of the 3M are also subjected to it without any choice in the matter at all.

Consent my ass.

They did the best they could in 1776. The founding fathers believed that consent of the governed was the only basis for legitimate government. The founding fathers established a government that has been accepted by the people as legitimate for over 230 years now, yes it's the consent of the majority.

If a majority wants a new government we will have it. Under the Constitution there are different methods for changing the basic law or amending the Constitution.

Your argument is facetious and you know it.
 
Do you really think shit would be different if the elections were not rigged? We've been going down hill for a lot longer than thirty years. All the Republican and Democratic candidates in the primaries are scumbag status quo types, democracy just allows all of these amoral characters to compete at who is the best liar/manipulator and who can siphon off the most taxpayer monies to special interest groups.

We would have been just as screwed had we Gore or Kerry for President, you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

I believe people have to start demanding change at the local level and it will filter upward to the national level. I believe starting at the top is like banging your head against the wall, it's only going to feel better if you stop.

I think making sure the vote is not rigged and encouraging non-partisan activity at the local level is a first step.
 
I believe people have to start demanding change at the local level and it will filter upward to the national level. I believe starting at the top is like banging your head against the wall, it's only going to feel better if you stop.

I think making sure the vote is not rigged and encouraging non-partisan activity at the local level is a first step.

I believe scrapping a system that is obviously broken (based on empirical evidence and rational argument) is the first step.


the Constitution and the Laws are derived from the consent of the governed

*pukes*

One of the biggest lies in this thread.
 
[the Constitution and the Laws are derived from the consent of the governed] It's historical fact, sorry.

Does that historical fact apply to the slaves that were governed by the consititution? Did the women who could not vote give consent? Did the individuals who did not own land and could not vote give consent? What about the Jews and Catholics that were not allowed to vote?

I don't accept 'not revolting' as equal to consent.
 
The foundation of our government on consent of the governed is historic fact. The fact that white men were assumed to be those that needed to consent persisted for a long time, but gradually that changed.

Short of God coming down and giving them tablets carved in stone, I believe they did the best they could.

It is the responsibility of future generations to continue and improve upon that work, not destroy it.

You do realize there are people lurking around this board that honestly believe that this country started going downhill when women got the vote, don't you?

Every society has its retrograde component, even this one.
 
Democracy is Not Freedom, by Ron Paul

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul233.html

Democracy Is Not Freedom

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD



“…man is not free unless government is limited. There's a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and as a law of physics: As government expands, liberty contracts.” ~ Ronald Reagan

We’ve all heard the words democracy and freedom used countless times, especially in the context of our invasion of Iraq. They are used interchangeably in modern political discourse, yet their true meanings are very different.

George Orwell wrote about “meaningless words” that are endlessly repeated in the political arena.* Words like “freedom,” “democracy,” and “justice,” Orwell explained, have been abused so long that their original meanings have been eviscerated. In Orwell’s view, political words were “Often used in a consciously dishonest way.” Without precise meanings behind words, politicians and elites can obscure reality and condition people to reflexively associate certain words with positive or negative perceptions. In other words, unpleasant facts can be hidden behind purposely meaningless language. As a result, Americans have been conditioned to accept the word “democracy” as a synonym for freedom, and thus to believe that democracy is unquestionably good.

The problem is that democracy is not freedom. Democracy is simply majoritarianism, which is inherently incompatible with real freedom. Our founding fathers clearly understood this, as evidenced not only by our republican constitutional system, but also by their writings in the Federalist Papers and elsewhere. James Madison cautioned that under a democratic government, “There is nothing to check the inducement to sacrifice the weaker party or the obnoxious individual.” John Adams argued that democracies merely grant revocable rights to citizens depending on the whims of the masses, while a republic exists to secure and protect pre-existing rights. Yet how many Americans know that the word “democracy” is found neither in the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence, our very founding documents?

A truly democratic election in Iraq, without U.S. interference and U.S. puppet candidates, almost certainly would result in the creation of a Shiite theocracy. Shiite majority rule in Iraq might well mean the complete political, economic, and social subjugation of the minority Kurd and Sunni Arab populations. Such an outcome would be democratic, but would it be free? Would the Kurds and Sunnis consider themselves free? The administration talks about democracy in Iraq, but is it prepared to accept a democratically-elected Iraqi government no matter what its attitude toward the U.S. occupation? Hardly. For all our talk about freedom and democracy, the truth is we have no idea whether Iraqis will be free in the future. They’re certainly not free while a foreign army occupies their country. The real test is not whether Iraq adopts a democratic, pro-western government, but rather whether ordinary Iraqis can lead their personal, religious, social, and business lives without interference from government.

Simply put, freedom is the absence of government coercion. Our Founding Fathers understood this, and created the least coercive government in the history of the world. The Constitution established a very limited, decentralized government to provide national defense and little else. States, not the federal government, were charged with protecting individuals against criminal force and fraud. For the first time, a government was created solely to protect the rights, liberties, and property of its citizens. Any government coercion beyond that necessary to secure those rights was forbidden, both through the Bill of Rights and the doctrine of strictly enumerated powers. This reflected the founders’ belief that democratic government could be as tyrannical as any King.

Few Americans understand that all government action is inherently coercive. If nothing else, government action requires taxes. If taxes were freely paid, they wouldn’t be called taxes, they’d be called donations. If we intend to use the word freedom in an honest way, we should have the simple integrity to give it real meaning: Freedom is living without government coercion. So when a politician talks about freedom for this group or that, ask yourself whether he is advocating more government action or less.

The political left equates freedom with liberation from material wants, always via a large and benevolent government that exists to create equality on earth. To modern liberals, men are free only when the laws of economics and scarcity are suspended, the landlord is rebuffed, the doctor presents no bill, and groceries are given away. But philosopher Ayn Rand (and many others before her) demolished this argument by explaining how such “freedom” for some is possible only when government takes freedoms away from others. In other words, government claims on the lives and property of those who are expected to provide housing, medical care, food, etc. for others are coercive – and thus incompatible with freedom. “Liberalism,” which once stood for civil, political, and economic liberties, has become a synonym for omnipotent coercive government.

The political right equates freedom with national greatness brought about through military strength. Like the left, modern conservatives favor an all-powerful central state – but for militarism, corporatism, and faith-based welfarism. Unlike the Taft-Goldwater conservatives of yesteryear, today’s Republicans are eager to expand government spending, increase the federal police apparatus, and intervene militarily around the world. The last tenuous links between conservatives and support for smaller government have been severed. “Conservatism,” which once meant respect for tradition and distrust of active government, has transformed into big-government utopian grandiosity.

Orwell certainly was right about the use of meaningless words in politics. If we hope to remain free, we must cut through the fog and attach concrete meanings to the words politicians use to deceive us. We must reassert that America is a republic, not a democracy, and remind ourselves that the Constitution places limits on government that no majority can overrule. We must resist any use of the word “freedom” to describe state action. We must reject the current meaningless designations of “liberals” and “conservatives,” in favor of an accurate term for both: statists.

Every politician on earth claims to support freedom. The problem is so few of them understand the simple meaning of the word.
 
You do realize there are people lurking around this board that honestly believe that this country started going downhill when women got the vote, don't you?

Actually society started downhill the moment Eve got Adam to eat that apple :p
 
There are none so blind as those who will not see. We are not a socialist republic, we are a democratic republic. There are many forms of republics.

You have oversimplified the issue LibertyEagle. Please go to the new thread and post your non-democratic ideas on how to fix this mess if you don't believe that the solution lies in democratic process within the Constitutional system. Be specific then, tell us how to do it.

How do we stuff federal government back into the box it belongs in?
 
They did the best they could in 1776. The founding fathers believed that consent of the governed was the only basis for legitimate government. The founding fathers established a government that has been accepted by the people as legitimate for over 230 years now, yes it's the consent of the majority.

If a majority wants a new government we will have it. Under the Constitution there are different methods for changing the basic law or amending the Constitution.

Your argument is facetious and you know it.

No, it's accurate. I pay my taxes for the same reason I pay muggers: They will use violence against me if I don't. Threatening violence against a person who has not harmed anyone in order to extort money from them is immoral, period -- no matter how big the gang of thieves is.

Interesting how you switched from "consent of the governed" to "consent of the majority".
 
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No, it's accurate. I pay my taxes for the same reason I pay muggers: They will use violence against me if I don't. Threatening violence against a person who has not harmed anyone in order to extort money from them is immoral, period -- no matter how big the gang of thieves is.

Interesting how you switched from "consent of the governed" to "consent of the majority".

I have TBI and get words mixed up. I was thinking of majority to change the constituition. I was referring to "consent of the governed" in the historic context with predates the revolution.

Anarchy is what you seem to be advocating which is absurd. If you have a better system - state it, don't just beat your gums when others are trying to figure out a way - but if it's anarchy I will ignore you that would take us back to the dark ages.

ON EDIT - I just checked your posting record and have decided you are a troll as far as I am concerned. I will attempt to ignore your posts in the future.. If I forget because of the TBI please feel free to remind me.
 
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http://www.thehumorarchives.com/joke/Beating_a_Dead_Horse
Dakota tribal wisdom says that when you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount. However, in business we often try other strategies with dead horses, including the following:

1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Say things like, "This is the way we have always ridden this horse."
4. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Increasing the standards to ride dead horses.
7. Appointing a tiger team to revive the dead horse.
8. Creating a training session to increase our riding ability.
9. Comparing the state of dead horses in todays environment.
10. Change the requirements declaring that "This horse is not dead."
11. Hire contractors to ride the dead horse.
12. Harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat."
14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
15. Do a Cost Analysis study to see if contractors can ride it cheaper.
16. Purchase a product to make dead horses run faster.
17. Declare the horse is "better, faster and cheaper" dead.
18. Form a quality circle to find uses for dead horses.
19. Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
20. Say this horse was procured with cost as an independent variable.
21. Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position.
beating_a_dead_horse.jpg
 
There are none so blind as those who will not see. We are not a socialist republic, we are a democratic republic. There are many forms of republics.

You have oversimplified the issue LibertyEagle. Please go to the new thread and post your non-democratic ideas on how to fix this mess if you don't believe that the solution lies in democratic process within the Constitutional system. Be specific then, tell us how to do it.

How do we stuff federal government back into the box it belongs in?

I was responding to exactly what you have been incessantly claiming in this thread. The fallacy that our country was founded as a Democracy. It is a lie and as long as you continue to make that claim on this board, I will be there to refute it.

:)
 
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