Democracy is not a dirty word -

you want dirty words?....... I'll give you dirty words......


Capitalism
Free Market
A balanced Budget
Living within your means
Patriot
Militia
Republic
Constitutional
The 10th Amendment
The 2nd Amendment
The 4th Amendment
Individual Liberty




yes I kiss my mother with this mouth:D
 
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You're beating your head against a wall.. a constitutional republic is a form of democracy .. Like I said before you're right and wrong we a have a democratic system but restrained by the rule of law.

This was posted earlier..

YouTube - Republic vs Democracy

So the "essense of freedom is the proper limitation of government. " I've been saying that too...

The propler limitation of government is the right and responsibility of the Demos in a democratic, constitiutional republic.

The above video states an improper premise. Just as monarchy and dictatorship rely on those men behind the curtain, preservation of our Constitutional system depends you the Demos acting as the "men behind the curtain" enabling the republic and properly limiting the scope of government.
 
WRONG

Unrestrained Democracy is destroying our rights despite the constitution.

The only thing that will"preserve" it is the 2nd amendment. Used to it's intended purpose.
Unfortunate, but true. :(


How the hell can you have unrestrained democracy in a country that hasn't had an honest election in 30 years?
 
Well I can be. ;)
Does blunt and accurate = Dickhead ??

Please note that your Jefferson quote in post 162 is a fake.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." - Thomas Jefferson

Please note that your Jefferson quote in post 67 is a fake.



Please note that your Jefferson quote and several others given in post 68 are fakes.
 
I notice you didn't include any of the fraudluent democracy bashing quotes that I exposed, you just used one out of context. I'm not sure that's an improvement.

The suicide part is coming from not exercising our rights under democracy. See post 176 form my comment on the above quote.


Here's the Complete context. Clearly John Adams is NOT a fan of Democracy.


John Adams:

In your fifth page, you say, " Mr. Adams calls our attention to hundreds of wise and virtuous patricians, mangled and bleeding victims of popular fury, and gravely counts up several victims of democratic rage, as proofs that democracy is more pernicious than monarchy or aristocracy."

Is this fair, sir ? Do you deny any one of my facts ? I do not say that democracy has been more pernicious on the whole, and in the long run, than monarchy or aristocracy. Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either. I beseech you, sir, to recollect the time when my three volumes of " Defense " were written and printed, in 1786,1787, and 1788. The history of the universe had not then furnished me with a document I have since seen, — an Alphabetical Dictionary of the Names and Qualities of Persons, " Mangled and Bleeding Victims of Democratic Rage and Popular Fury " in France, during the Despotism of Democracy in that Country, which Napoleon ought to be immortalized for calling Ideology. This work is in two printed volumes, in octavo, as large as Johnson's Dictionary, and is in the library of our late and excellent Vice- President, Elbridge Gerry, where I hope it will be preserved with anxious care. An edition of it ought to be printed in America; otherwise it will be forever suppressed. France will never dare look at it. The democrats themselves could not bear the sight of it; they prohibited and suppressed it as far as they could. It contains an immense number of as great and good men as France ever produced. We curse the Inquisition and the Jesuits, and yet the Inquisition and the Jesuits are restored. We curse religiously the memory of Mary, for burning good men in Smithfield, when, if England had then been democratical, she would have burned many more, and we murder many more by the guillotine in the latter years of the eighteenth century. We curse Guy Fawkes for thinking of blowing up Westminster Hall; yet Ross blows up the capitol, the palace, and the library at Washington, and would have done it with the same sang froid had congress and the president's family been within the walls. O! my soul! I am weary of these dismal contemplations! When will mankind listen to reason, to nature, or to revelation ?

You say, I " might have exhibited millions of plebeians sacrificed to the pride, folly, and ambition of monarchy and aristocracy." This is very true. And I might have exhibited as many millions of plebeians sacrificed by the pride, folly, and ambition of their fellow-plebeians and their own, in proportion to the extent and duration of their power. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history. Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence, and cruelty. When clear prospects are opened before vanity, pride, avarice, or ambition, for their easy gratification, it is hard for the most considerate philosophers and the most conscientious moralists to resist the temptation. Individuals have conquered themselves. Nations and large bodies of men, never.

When Solon's balance was destroyed by Aristides, and the preponderance given to the multitude, for which he was rewarded with the title of Just, when he ought to have been punished with the ostracism, the Athenians grew more and more democratic. I need not enumerate to you the foolish wars into which the people forced their wisest men and ablest generals against their own judgments, by which the state was finally ruined, and Philip and Alexander became their masters.

In proportion as the balance, imperfect and unskillful as it was originally, here as in Athens, inclined more and more to the dominatio plebis, the Carthaginians became more and more restless, impatient, enterprising, ambitious, avaricious, and rash, till Hannibal swore eternal hostility to the Romans, and the Romans were compelled to pronounce delenda est Carthago.

What can I say of the democracy of France ? I dare not write what I think and what I know. Were Brissot, Condorcet, Danton, Robespierre, and Monseigneur Egalité less ambitious than Caesar, Alexander, or Napoleon ? Were Dumouriez, Pichegru, Moreau, less generals, less conquerors, or, in the end, less fortunate than the last was ? What was the ambition of this democracy? Nothing less than to propagate itself, its principles, its system, through the world; to decapitate all the kings, destroy all the nobles and priests in Europe. And who were the instruments employed by the mountebanks behind the scene, to accomplish these sublime purposes ? The firewomen, the badauds, the stage players, the atheists, the deists, the scribblers for any cause at three livres a day, the Jews, and oh! that I could erase from my memory the learned divines,—profound students in the prophecies, — real philosophers and sincere Christians, in amazing numbers, over all Europe and America, who were hurried away by the torrent of contagious enthusiasm. Democracy is chargeable with all the blood that has been spilled for five-and-twenty years.

Napoleon and all his generals were but creatures of democracy, as really as Rienzi, Theodore, Massaniello, Jack Cade, or Wat Tyler. This democratical hurricane, inundation, earthquake, pestilence, call it which you will, at last aroused and alarmed all the world, and produced a combination unexampled, to prevent its further progress.

I Hope my last convinced you that democracy is as restless, as ambitious, as warlike and bloody, as aristocracy or monarchy.


SOURCE:
http://books.google.com/books?id=XF...+did+not+commit+suicide.&as_brr=0&output=text
 
Please note that your Jefferson quote in post 162 is a fake.



Please note that your Jefferson quote in post 67 is a fake.




Please note that your Jefferson quote and several others given in post 68 are fakes.

Please note that you are full of SHIT.
Thank you for your time.
 
Here's the Complete context. Clearly John Adams is NOT a fan of Democracy.


John Adams:

In your fifth page, you say, " Mr. Adams calls our attention to hundreds of wise and virtuous patricians, mangled and bleeding victims of popular fury, and gravely counts up several victims of democratic rage, as proofs that democracy is more pernicious than monarchy or aristocracy."

Is this fair, sir ? Do you deny any one of my facts ? I do not say that democracy has been more pernicious on the whole, and in the long run, than monarchy or aristocracy. Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either. I beseech you, sir, to recollect the time when my three volumes of " Defense " were written and printed, in 1786,1787, and 1788. The history of the universe had not then furnished me with a document I have since seen, — an Alphabetical Dictionary of the Names and Qualities of Persons, " Mangled and Bleeding Victims of Democratic Rage and Popular Fury " in France, during the Despotism of Democracy in that Country, which Napoleon ought to be immortalized for calling Ideology. This work is in two printed volumes, in octavo, as large as Johnson's Dictionary, and is in the library of our late and excellent Vice- President, Elbridge Gerry, where I hope it will be preserved with anxious care. An edition of it ought to be printed in America; otherwise it will be forever suppressed. France will never dare look at it. The democrats themselves could not bear the sight of it; they prohibited and suppressed it as far as they could. It contains an immense number of as great and good men as France ever produced. We curse the Inquisition and the Jesuits, and yet the Inquisition and the Jesuits are restored. We curse religiously the memory of Mary, for burning good men in Smithfield, when, if England had then been democratical, she would have burned many more, and we murder many more by the guillotine in the latter years of the eighteenth century. We curse Guy Fawkes for thinking of blowing up Westminster Hall; yet Ross blows up the capitol, the palace, and the library at Washington, and would have done it with the same sang froid had congress and the president's family been within the walls. O! my soul! I am weary of these dismal contemplations! When will mankind listen to reason, to nature, or to revelation ?

You say, I " might have exhibited millions of plebeians sacrificed to the pride, folly, and ambition of monarchy and aristocracy." This is very true. And I might have exhibited as many millions of plebeians sacrificed by the pride, folly, and ambition of their fellow-plebeians and their own, in proportion to the extent and duration of their power. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history. Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence, and cruelty. When clear prospects are opened before vanity, pride, avarice, or ambition, for their easy gratification, it is hard for the most considerate philosophers and the most conscientious moralists to resist the temptation. Individuals have conquered themselves. Nations and large bodies of men, never.

When Solon's balance was destroyed by Aristides, and the preponderance given to the multitude, for which he was rewarded with the title of Just, when he ought to have been punished with the ostracism, the Athenians grew more and more democratic. I need not enumerate to you the foolish wars into which the people forced their wisest men and ablest generals against their own judgments, by which the state was finally ruined, and Philip and Alexander became their masters.

In proportion as the balance, imperfect and unskillful as it was originally, here as in Athens, inclined more and more to the dominatio plebis, the Carthaginians became more and more restless, impatient, enterprising, ambitious, avaricious, and rash, till Hannibal swore eternal hostility to the Romans, and the Romans were compelled to pronounce delenda est Carthago.

What can I say of the democracy of France ? I dare not write what I think and what I know. Were Brissot, Condorcet, Danton, Robespierre, and Monseigneur Egalité less ambitious than Caesar, Alexander, or Napoleon ? Were Dumouriez, Pichegru, Moreau, less generals, less conquerors, or, in the end, less fortunate than the last was ? What was the ambition of this democracy? Nothing less than to propagate itself, its principles, its system, through the world; to decapitate all the kings, destroy all the nobles and priests in Europe. And who were the instruments employed by the mountebanks behind the scene, to accomplish these sublime purposes ? The firewomen, the badauds, the stage players, the atheists, the deists, the scribblers for any cause at three livres a day, the Jews, and oh! that I could erase from my memory the learned divines,—profound students in the prophecies, — real philosophers and sincere Christians, in amazing numbers, over all Europe and America, who were hurried away by the torrent of contagious enthusiasm. Democracy is chargeable with all the blood that has been spilled for five-and-twenty years.

Napoleon and all his generals were but creatures of democracy, as really as Rienzi, Theodore, Massaniello, Jack Cade, or Wat Tyler. This democratical hurricane, inundation, earthquake, pestilence, call it which you will, at last aroused and alarmed all the world, and produced a combination unexampled, to prevent its further progress.

I Hope my last convinced you that democracy is as restless, as ambitious, as warlike and bloody, as aristocracy or monarchy.


SOURCE:
http://books.google.com/books?id=XF...+did+not+commit+suicide.&as_brr=0&output=text

He also criticised republics in another context. Here it is clear that he is speaking directly to the abuses of mob rule which can occur in a pure democracy, specifically the French Revolution.

The founding fathers felt the the Bill of Rights was essential to the Constitution, it served as a grounding force for democracy, what some here call "rule of law", but the truth is that the Constitution and country can not stand if the demos is stripped of power. That is the current issue that must be dealt with.
 
Here's the Complete context. Clearly John Adams is NOT a fan of Democracy.


John Adams:

I Hope my last convinced you that democracy is as restless, as ambitious, as warlike and bloody, as aristocracy or monarchy.

Obviously John Adams never read Hoppe. Democracy is far more restless, ambitious, warlike, and bloody than aristocracy and monarchy are.
 
Obviously John Adams never read Hoppe. Democracy is far more restless, ambitious, warlike, and bloody than aristocracy and monarchy are.
Both of capable of horrific atrocities; it just depends on the monarchy in charge. Example: Mary I of England, known as "Bloody Mary."
 
Democracy Is Not Freedom

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
February 7, 2005

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul233.html

Ok, you've done the same thing with Dr. Paul's paper as you've done with the writings of the founding fathers.

The paper is about speaking honestly and defining terms, showing a constitutional basis for limited government.

He is using the example of how the Bush administration used "democracy for Iraq" as an excuse to en enlarge government and further an economic war.

He shows how both "liberals" and "conservatives" have jumped the rails and permitted the federal government to exceed its Constituitional limits.

If we hope to remain free, we must cut through the fog and attach concrete meanings to the words politicians use to deceive us. We must reassert that America is a republic, not a democracy, and remind ourselves that the Constitution places limits on government that no majority can overrule. We must resist any use of the word “freedom” to describe state action. We must reject the current meaningless designations of “liberals” and “conservatives,” in favor of an accurate term for both: statists.


So, If I walked up to Dr. Paul today and asked him - "How are we the people supposed to take back the power that the federal government has appropriated and stuff it back into the little box it belongs in? What thechniques and methods would you recommend? "

I've moved this question to a separate thread:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2230594#post2230594

By the way, there was nothing in that paper that has contradicted my original or elaborated position on democracy. It's not a dirty word, it is a word that has been badly abused, especially since the invasion of Iraq.

That does not preclude my point - that when correctly defined within the context of our Constitutional government, democracy - the rule of the demos -the consent of the governed - is the part of our system that has failed.

I hope people on this forum will use the new thread to generate SPECIFIC ideas about how put things back on track. If you believe there is a way that does not include "democracy" tell me what it is.
 
In the spirit of Democracy, should be abolish the Electoral College?

I have a concern that by adding a layer of abstraction to the process of electing a president the electoral college makes it easier for "them" to put their man in place.

The concept of an electoral college was useful before the time of mass communication. Having a group of people who supposedly represented the people's will in electing a president that could physically meet and deal with that issue was necessary in the 18th century. A lot has changed, and I think this concept needs a serious re-think.

I also think that with the current broken vote it doesn't really matter if we have an electoral college or not. Things be "arranged" by "them" in any election.
 
Okay, I'll compromise.

Representative Democracy = Okay
Democracy = Dirty word.

Since James Madison defined a Republic as a "Representative Democracy" in Federalist Paper No. 10, I'll accept it.

Just to clear up any confusion, people should use "Republic" because when you say "Democracy" people think of a true Democracy, which is dangerous.
 
So, If I walked up to Dr. Paul today and asked him - "How are we the people supposed to take back the power that the federal government has appropriated and stuff it back into the little box it belongs in? What techniques and methods would you recommend? "

While I notice you've reposted this on another thread ... I'll answer here, since my answer relates to the appreciation of "democracy."

Yes .... the founding fathers setup a system whereby the people could use the vote to overhaul the system. Yes ... We must strive to vote in elected officials that will respect, uphold and adhere to the constitution.

But, as a Constitutional Republic, drastic change by popular vote would have been viewed as a things-are-way-out-of-control scenario. The 2nd Amendment was more intended for that than the vote of the majority. The checks are balances designed by division between executive, legislative and judicial bodies ... all checked by the states.

Overall, the "popular vote" was not considered trustworthy or worthwhile. In fact, the Constitution prevent the majority vote from having much of any impact on things.

As such ... the practical steps are to use the vehicles that are available to return the country to the Constitution.

Almost all voters are only concerned enough to vote for who make the ticket. There is only a slight uptick of interest on primary elections. Thus, one important avenue for change is to influence who makes it onto the ballot. That doesn't mean try and get greater participation of popular vote into who gets on the ballot ... it means get involved in levels that influence ballot access.

The CFL is another vehicle for returning to the Constitution. Organize and direct efforts to influence already elected officials.

Yes, the ballot box is important. But, if you haven't set things up way before election day, you've already lost.
 
Wow, did you even stop to think if that even sounds plausible? People in a free society are not going to allow other people to make decisions for them just because they have land. The only way to enforce your little ideal system is through violent suppression.

Second, Have you ever thought that some people might just prefer to rent, and don't care about owning land? Hell, some people don't really want to own anything, and would just rather live in a voluntary community. Should they not be allowed a vote?

Just think for two seconds about the implications of what you're saying. It's a fantasy world. Not reality.

Ben, you left out a key part of my post: "original setup."

People in a free society DID allow other people to vote and not them. Yes ... renters did not vote. It was reality.


I was not claiming that we could be successful in returning to that. My post was explaining that given the way things were, it would have been highly inaccurate to call the country a democracy.

Now, would I like to see that. Probably, yes. Land owners voting / poll tax are things that I see as better safeguards to protecting personal property. I'm a fan of the electoral college. I'd rather the state legislator (thanks guys for catching that earlier) elect US senators.
 
Poll taxes? Jesus. Listen to what you're saying. Do you really think some guy coming out of inner city detroit can afford to pay a poll tax when he's 18? Now what about an 18 year old coming out of Orange Co, California? Do you not see a problem here? My guess is that you don't care.
 
Poll taxes? Listen to what you're saying. Do you really think some guy coming out of inner city detroit can afford to pay a poll tax when he's 18? Now what about an 18 year old coming out of Orange Co, California? Do you not see a problem here? My guess is that you don't care.

Allow me to repost a link to Irwin Schiff's book "How an Economy Grows and Why It Doesn't":
Really big file: http://www.restoretherepublic.org/documents/how-an-economy-grows.pdf
(p56...60)

or links to pages:
http://www.takelifeback.com/hegawid/
(p50...54)

Some quotes:
"If a vote costs nothing it's worth nothing."
"The ignorant and irresponsible will vote if it's free, and such votes are dangerous!"
"Let the stupid and who-cares citizens stay home! If he pays to vote he'll pay more attention to the issues and the candidates."

I'd be more interested in ensuring a form of government that protects life, liberty and personal property than being sure that a poor 18 year old has a chance to vote for somebody who promises to redistribute somebody else's property. I think a poll tax would better accomplish that.
 
Allow me to repost a link to Irwin Schiff's book "How an Economy Grows and Why It Doesn't":


I'd be more interested in ensuring a form of government that protects life, liberty and personal property than being sure that a poor 18 year old has a chance to vote for somebody who promises to redistribute somebody else's property. I think a poll tax would better accomplish that.

Yeah, and if you disenfranchise those without a sufficient amount of property, property will be the only thing that gets protected.... Life and liberty will be subject to groups like the KKK. We've been there, remember?
 
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