Defense of "We The People" Act

I don't have one and it has come up in the past. Anyone want to help me out by explaining why this act is a good idea? Dr. Paul has introduced this act several times.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.4379:

This came up in a thread on LiveJournal. Here is my response.

People don't like to face the fact that the bill of rights does not apply to states. They are restraints upon the federal government.

The same reasoning Ron Paul uses to say they federal courts have no jurisdiction over abortion is used here to say they have no jurisdiction over religion.

If you don't like your state's laws I suggest you work to change them or move to another state where the people think like you do. The only alternative is to have the federal government dictate everything, sort of like what we have now, only the way it is now, whoever controls the federal government controls the entire country. That's fine if your gang happens to be in charge, but as soon as another gang gets control everyone wants to cry foul.

I can't address other states, but the constitution of Maryland has a pretty good Declaration of Rights. According to it the people "have, at all times, the inalienable right to alter, reform or abolish their Form of Government in such manner as they may deem expedient." If we choose to do that, I'd rather not have some cranky old man in DC overturn our actions.

I guess it all boils down to whether or not you really believe individual sovereignty trumps state sovereignty which trumps trumps the federal government. Do you think power is resides with the governed or the government? Do you trust the people closest to you more than you trust those further away. Can you influence those closest to you easier than those further away? The more power we give to higher levels of government the less we have for ourselves.

Personally, I'm glad to have a candidate for president who understands that my rights cannot be dictated by a centralized national state.
 
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depends on how you look at it

I don't have one and it has come up in the past. Anyone want to help me out by explaining why this act is a good idea? Dr. Paul has introduced this act several times.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.4379:

The Act is a jurisdiction-stripping statute. Personally, I think that this Act is not a good idea; at least, not in the context of the current Federal legislative and Executive Branch, which have grown very powerful and threaten to impinge on fundamental rights. In these times, I see the federal judiciary as the last remaining shield against the sword of the Executive and Legislative branches.

However, the analysis changes if the federal government is much more limited in scope -- which it presumably would be, under a RP administration. If the federal legislative / executive's reach were shorter, then a powerful federal judiciary would transform from a anti-majoritarian shield into a minority of philosopher-kings.
 
Ok, this has helped flesh it out a bit, thanks.

Am I incorrect in saying that the Constitution enumerates the rights of individuals living in the United States and that, since a State is a member of the Unites States, those rights enumerated in the Constitution shall not be infringed upon within that state?

So, a states constitution has to fit within the rules of the US constitution. If it does not, doesn't that then become a Federal issue?

I've been asked to defend this elsewhere and I'm really having a rough go of it.
 
The Bill of Rights applies to both Congress and the States; it just depends on the wording of the bill.

For example; "Congress shall make no law respecting. . ." This states that Congress cannot make a law....the States can, if they so desire. The 2nd amendment, however, is one that is very very clear, and applies to everyone within the United States "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". This makes sense...because if even the States became too abusive of their power (which you know, the Federal government could be PERFECT, but you could have a bunch of little State dictatorships), there was a preventative measure in place. Amendment III is another one that applies to everyone.

As I said, it depends on the wording of the amendment....and thus why we must be careful not to make amendments that limit States' rights.
 
Am I incorrect in saying that the Constitution enumerates the rights of individuals living in the United States and that, since a State is a member of the Unites States, those rights enumerated in the Constitution shall not be infringed upon within that state?

No. The Constitution enumerates the powers of the federal government and recognizes that those powers not so enumerated remain with the states and the people. It does not say the "States shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." It says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." It is the responsibility of the states and the people to protect rights at the local level. If the states fail in that responsibility, at least in Maryland, the people have the right and the responsibility "to alter, reform or abolish their Form of Government in such manner as they may deem expedient." The power resides at the bottom, not the top. It is abandoning that principle that has brought us to where we are today.
 
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The act is terrible. It overturns court decisions like Texas v. Lawerence which says that gays are able to have sex in the privacy of their own home and not be arrested. For someone who believes so strongly in civil liberties and privacy rights, it's quite contradictory. It's anti-liberty and anti-privacy. When liberals learn of this act and the opposition to the Civil Rights Act, they immediately turn away and I don't blame them.
 
The act is terrible. It overturns court decisions like Texas v. Lawerence which says that gays are able to have sex in the privacy of their own home and not be arrested. For someone who believes so strongly in civil liberties and privacy rights, it's quite contradictory. It's anti-liberty and anti-privacy. When liberals learn of this act and the opposition to the Civil Rights Act, they immediately turn away and I don't blame them.

He probably authored it not because of that, but because it would give more power to the States. At the same time, I thought the Right to Privacy was enshrined in the IV Amendment, so I don't see how Texas could pass a law like that (after all, some amendments are for the Federal government only, and others are for the States and Federal government).

On a side note, however, the act does show Ron Paul's paleoLibertarian ideals.
 
some clarifications

Ok, this has helped flesh it out a bit, thanks.

Am I incorrect in saying that the Constitution enumerates the rights of individuals living in the United States and that, since a State is a member of the Unites States, those rights enumerated in the Constitution shall not be infringed upon within that state?

So, a states constitution has to fit within the rules of the US constitution. If it does not, doesn't that then become a Federal issue?

I've been asked to defend this elsewhere and I'm really having a rough go of it.

Well, there are two different issues here.

First, the issue of enumeration.

The Constitution enumerates the rights of the federal government. All other rights are reserved to the States (see, e.g. the 10th Amendment). One way to see this division of powers is to compare federal courts versus state courts. The key distinction between federal and state courts is that federal courts are courts of limited jurisdiction, whereas state courts are courts of general jurisdiction.

You cannot, for example, try a Defendant on State charges of murder in a federal court. But barring the presence of unusual circumstances, you can litigate damn near any issue that you please in a State court.

Second, the issue of individual rights.

The Bill of Rights does provide for and protect individual rights. The Bill of Rights applies to the federal government and (generally speaking) the State governments as well.

You are partially correct that the State constitution has to fit within the rules of the U.S. Constitution. But this is not the full picture. The U.S. Constitution is the baseline that sets out basic rights that every State, regardless of their Constitution, must obey. In other words, States can enact greater protections for their citizens in, say, their own State Constitutions, but States cannot curtail protections provided under the U.S. Constitutions.

If the State curtails rights that the U.S. Constitution provides, than it does become a federal issue.
 
maybe

The act is terrible. It overturns court decisions like Texas v. Lawerence which says that gays are able to have sex in the privacy of their own home and not be arrested. For someone who believes so strongly in civil liberties and privacy rights, it's quite contradictory. It's anti-liberty and anti-privacy. When liberals learn of this act and the opposition to the Civil Rights Act, they immediately turn away and I don't blame them.

I generally agree that jurisdiction-stripping is a bad idea, especially in this context. Nevertheless, I think that we do have to look at the other side of the coin. The power of the judiciary to create rights out of the Due Process Clause (especially under the rubric of Substantive Due Process) is a profoundly undemocratic idea. For example, in the case that you cited, the Supreme Court found that there is a right to consensual adult sex (to vastly paraphrase) through the Due Process Clause. But nowhere in the Constitution does there appear a right to homosexual sex, or indeed, heterosexual sex.

The real danger, I think, is that by creating these rights, the judiciary is disturbing the political process for amending the Constitution. Personally, I would welcome a Constitutional Amendment providing for basic protections for consensual adult sexual relationships. But it would seem easier to amend your State's Constitution to reflect your beliefs.
 
When it comes down to it, the sole purpose of government is to protect the life, liberty, and property of individuals. This gets interesting, however, when government has multiple levels of jurisdiction and authority, i.e. federal, state, and local. We have two philosophical ways of looking at this when drafting, amending, and interpreting the Constitutions of various levels of government:

1.) Each level of government exists to protect the life, liberty, or property of the people by performing some sort of duty (e.g. a national defense in the case of the federal government). It has the moral responsibility to restrain itself from imposing tyranny on its people, but it has no moral authority to protect the rights of citizens from intermediary levels of government. Under this frame of mind, it would be improper for a government's Constitution to give it the authority to protect the people's rights from intermediary governments. The advantage of this is that lower levels of government essentially always trump higher levels of government, bringing power closer to the people. The disadvantage of this is that even the most basic of individual rights essentially must be fought for at every single level of government to ensure that the Constitutions of each of those levels prevent them from imposing tyranny. In other words, no higher level of government can force lower levels of government to draft moral Constitutions. As such, small jurisdictions could potentially regress into direct democracy or even a dictatorship; in other words, small towns would be perfectly free to burn witches and gays at the stake, and hang, draw, and quarter anyone caught trying to leave.

2.) Each level of government exists to protect the life, liberty, or property of the people by performing some sort of duty (e.g. a national defense in the case of the federal government). It has the moral responsibility and authority to restrain not only itself, but also intermediary governments, from imposing tyranny on its people. As such, it is perfectly legitimate to draft, amend, or interpret a Constitution in such a way that it forces intermediary governments to respect an enumerated (but nonexhaustive) list of individual rights. The advantages of this are obvious; as the only real purpose for government is to protect the life, liberty, and property of citizens, it makes sense to me that it should protect them from all threats within reach. Granted, a government that disregards its Constitution (or has an improper Constitution giving it unwarranted power) will be able to trump intermediary governments and impose tyranny, but that applies equally to situation 1 anyway, since a government gone rampant would impose force regardless!* In other words, giving a government the legitimate power to protect its citizens' rights from intermediary governments (and not just itself) does not pose any additional threat of tyranny from higher level governments, except in the rare case when the higher level recognizes and protects one potential right at the expense of another (e.g. the right to life vs. the right to privacy in the abortion scenario). Even then, the wise solution is to let lower levels decide these conflicts by either:
a.) Not enumerating conflicting rights at all, or preferably,
b.) Explicitly stating that if the government protects conflicting rights, it is up to lower levels to decide how to handle any conflicts that arise.
The only other disadvantage of this is that the dull might interpret an enumeration of rights to be exhaustive, but it is not, unless the Constitution itself is in fact immoral and breaks this view of legitimate authority (by stating that the list is exhaustive). For the record, our own Constitution explicitly states that the enumeration is not exhaustive in the Ninth Amendment, so this particular disadvantage does not apply to the current Constitution of the United States:
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.​

Now, I understand why Ron Paul and others might believe that the incorporation doctrine is flawed (or even phony, as Dr. Paul says); for several reasons, they are actually correct. After all, the Fourteenth Amendment (among others created during the Reconstruction period) was not properly ratified, so it does not really carry the full force of law that real Amendments do. In addition, you could even argue that the wording itself is somewhat vague and doesn't point to incorporation (although if you did, I must retort that if certain clauses were not meant to enforce the Bill of Rights on the states, what the hell are they actually saying? Meaningless fluff? ;)). Finally, if we did accept 100% incorporation, state and local laws against libel and slander (among other things) would become unconstitutional, which may not be the most desirable thing in the world.

In light of all of that, I certainly understand (and perhaps agree with) Ron Paul's rejection of interpreting the Constitution (as it stands) in favor of incorporation. Consequently, I also understand the Constitutional basis for the "We the People" Act. However, I do think that Dr. Paul is in the wrong on one thing: Rather than fighting for laws like the "We the People" Act that more explicitly affirm each state's "right" to impose tyranny, shouldn't he be fighting for a more legitimate Constitutional Amendment incorporating the Bill of Rights for the states (perhaps with some exceptions afforded the states to allow for things like slander and libel laws)? In addition, if we cannot interpret the Constitution to protect such things as the right to privacy and consentual sex in the first place, perhaps he should have focused his efforts on drafting Constitutional Amendments affirming such rights? That said, I do admit that the Ninth and Tenth Amendments probably make such "new rights" unnecessary in the federal sense, so they're only really necessary if we're wanting to impose them on states through incorporation.

Obviously, I subscribe to "view 2" of governmental authority as detailed above. I strongly believe in [constitutionally] giving the federal government the authority to protect the people from state-imposed tyranny (and in my book, sodomy laws constitute tyranny). As mentioned above, permitting this does not increase the likelihood of the federal government itself becoming tyrannical. This is one of the very few situations where I have to wonder, "What's Ron Paul trying to achieve here?" In terms of this election, voting for Ron Paul is a no-brainer; he's America's only hope at the moment. That said, I do feel like his judgment is lacking on this particular matter (and that's pretty rare, since his arguments on most issues are very compelling).





*Our own government is such an example, as it infringes upon our rights by outright ignoring its own Constitution. It's too bad the Framers forgot one thing when writing the law of the land: Most laws come in two parts, the "here's the law" part, and the "here's what happens if you break it" part. It's unfortunate there are no clauses promising treason trials (or at least unceremonious dismissals) for legislators that vote for clearly unconstitutional laws (e.g. the PATRIOT Act), executives that enforce them, and judges that fail to strike them down as unconstitutional when given the chance...with leeway given for unclear and iffy violations, e.g. the incorporation doctrine. An enforcement clause would have scared the crap out of government officials and forced them to *gasp*, actually obey the supreme law of the land.
 
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I have a pretty strong issue with this bill, in that it actually controls what the federal government can and cannot discuss.

The courts should be able to talk about things like gay marriage and abortion - there's nothing constitutionally wrong with that. There is something wrong with some of the RULINGS on these issues - some of the possible RULINGS are unconstitutional. It seems just hypocritical of Ron Paul to endorse a bill that limits what the courts are constitutionally ALLOWED to talk about. I agree with others that this isn't a very good bill, and that there are better aspects of Dr. Paul that we can all focus on.
 
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I have a pretty strong issue with this bill, in that it actually controls what the federal government can and cannot discuss.

The courts should be able to talk about things like gay marriage and abortion - there's nothing constitutionally wrong with that. There is something wrong with some of the RULINGS on these issues - some of the possible RULINGS are unconstitutional. It seems just hypocritical of Ron Paul to endorse a bill that limits what the courts are constitutionally ALLOWED to talk about. I agree with others that this isn't a very good bill, and that there are better aspects of Dr. Paul that we can all focus on.

Technically, this is incorrect; the courts are part of the federal government, and as such they may only rule on matters that the federal government has authority and jurisdiction over, as defined by the Constitution. The Tenth Amendment affirms this by saying that all other powers are reserved for the states and the people. Gay marriage, like ANY marriage, is a state-level function. Also, even though states have the Constitutional authority to define marriage and hand out marriage licenses, there's really no good reason they should even be in that business anyway.

As far as abortion goes, there are two reasons combined that contribute to the fact that the Supreme Court (and therefore the federal government) currently has jurisdiction over that (and if one of these principles is admitted to be unconstitutional, the federal government no longer has the jurisdiction):
1.) The "Incorporation Doctrine" I mentioned above says that the Bill of Rights limits not only the federal government but also the states. Ron Paul and some others [correctly] contend that this doctrine is "phony," for several reasons I mentioned in my post above (for instance, the Fourteenth Amendment was never actually ratified, so it's not a legitimate part of the Constitution). In the absence of a Constitutional Incorporation Doctrine, the Tenth Amendment takes precedence and reserves the right of the states to rule however they like on abortion. That said, despite the fact that the Incorporation Doctrine as it stands is not legitimately part of the Constitution, I personally strongly think that for the most part, it should be, and we really need to get a properly ratified Amendment that says so (by "for the most part," I mean there should probably be some exceptions that allow the states and localities to create laws against slander, libel, disturbing the peace with 120 decibel music, etc.). I have a feeling Ron Paul disagrees that we need such an incorporation doctrine, in which case I would consider this to be a rare lack of judgment on his part (as mentioned above).
2.) According to Row vs. Wade, abortion is tied into a Constitutional "right to privacy." Although no such right to privacy is explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, the courts have justified it as implicit in the Fourth Amendment (search and seizures), Fifth Amendment (you cannot be forced to incriminate yourself), and Ninth Amendment (the rights listed in the Constitution are not exhaustive, and other implicit rights may exist). Many take issue with the idea that the Court can "create rights" based on the Ninth Amendment. This is due to the idea that, despite the fact that other inalienable rights may exist, what ever gave the Supreme Court the ability to decide what these are? (You could argue, however, that interpreting the Ninth Amendment in such a way is implicit in the Supreme Court's authority to interpret federal law.) Even if we agree that the right to privacy is a really important right that should be in the Constitution, perhaps we should actually amend that in instead of letting the Supreme Court single-handedly decide it exists? The abortion case is actually a perfect example of how this can cause problems: Under normal circumstances, the people should be delighted that a branch of government is actually creating new rights for them instead of taking them away, like usual. ;) However, in the case of abortion, this "right to privacy" of the mother conflicts with the "right to life" of the baby. In terms of rights, there's a conflict here which requires a judgment call as to which right takes precedence.

When we consider the abortion scenario, a clear danger emerges when we allow the Supreme Court to "create" rights and simultaneously decide which right prevails when conflicts arise: Technically speaking, if we allow the Supreme Court these two powers, there's nothing to stop them from creating a "right" that says rich people have the right to knock down poor people's houses, and this takes precedence over the property rights of poor people (since they conflict). Obviously this example is over-the-top and ridiculous, but it does illustrate the danger in letting the Supreme Court single-handedly declare arbitrary rights and then decide on the precedence of rights.

Now, since the Supreme Court has the authority to interpret federal law, they certainly have the authority to determine which rights take precedence when conflicts occur (at least in terms of what rights the federal government cannot infringe upon). If we accept the Incorporation Doctrine (which we really shouldn't until it's properly added to the Constitution), the Supreme Court's jurisdiction here is extended over the states. Since we clearly can't take away the Supreme Court's right to referee conflicts, it might be wise to reject their self-assumed authority to single-handedly recognize new rights.

No matter what, the federal government cannot Constitutionally ban abortion itself. This is because, if abortion is not covered under any Constitutional rights, it simply becomes a matter of common criminal or civil law (or not), as defined by the individual states. The federal government just has no jurisdiction there. Now, whether or not the federal government can restrain the states from banning abortion is a different matter altogether: If we accept only the right to privacy but not the Incorporation Doctrine, or vice versa, the federal government cannot bar the states from banning abortion. If we accept both of these, then the federal government can bar the states from banning abortion (but only if the current justices on the Supreme Court value the "right to privacy" over the "right to life" - and this can change depending on who is in power). However, as mentioned, if we accept both of these, and we accept the "right to privacy" solely based upon the Supreme Court's self-assumed authority to recognize new rights, we set a very dangerous precedent.

Bottom line: As it stands, the federal government most likely does not have legitimate authority to restrain the states from banning abortion...and really, this is probably how it should be. Some fights are just meant to take place at the state level (and for good reason, too - abortion has been a hugely divisive issue in American politics that has polarized people against each other and distracted us from much more existential threats, like our rampant printing of money). That said, the iffiness of the Incorporation Doctrine and the "right to privacy" make current Constitutional law a huge mess. If we were wise, we would amend the Constitution to include an explicit right to privacy and a real Incorporation Doctrine (we could just properly ratify the Fourteenth Amendment of course, but applying it consistently would make state laws like libel and slander unconstitutional), and we should be very careful about accepting the Supreme Court's claim to single-handedly recognize new rights.

Note: If we were to ratify the Fourteenth Amendment as it stands, the most common interpretation of the "privileges and immunities" clause would probably be to allow the Supreme Court to declare which rights take precedence and have that authority extend over the states as well. However, I imagine an alternative interpretation could arise that argues that the states should be able to determine precedence within their own borders, so long as they at least recognize all the rights. In that case, even if we accept the Incorporation Doctrine and the right to privacy (and/or the Supreme Court's authority to recognize "new" rights), it would still be up to the states to decide which rights take precedence, i.e. whether they can or cannot ban abortion.
 
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No matter what, the federal government cannot Constitutionally ban abortion itself. This is because, if abortion is not covered under any Constitutional rights, it simply becomes a matter of common criminal or civil law (or not), as defined by the individual states. The federal government just has no jurisdiction there. Now, whether or not the federal government can restrain the states from banning abortion is a different matter altogether: If we accept only the right to privacy but not the Incorporation Doctrine, or vice versa, the federal government cannot bar the states from banning abortion. If we accept both of these, then the federal government can bar the states from banning abortion (but only if the current justices on the Supreme Court value the "right to privacy" over the "right to life" - and this can change depending on who is in power). However, as mentioned, if we accept both of these, and we accept the "right to privacy" solely based upon the Supreme Court's self-assumed authority to recognize new rights, we set a very dangerous precedent.

Good post. I have one small quibble. If there were no Constitutional barrier to a prohibition on abortion, the federal government could plausibly enact a federal statute prohibiting abortion under the Commerce Clause, unless the Court takes a radical liberatarian turn.
 
Good catch, SuMuKong - however, if we do consider the "right to privacy" as a legitimate Constitutional restriction on the federal government, I think that would probably constitute a limit to the Commerce clause (i.e. the "thou shalt not's" given to the federal government by the Bill of Rights supercede the "here are your powers" parts).

Now that I've thought about it, I really should have rephrased my post to say that, because of the Tenth Amendment, all *four* of the following things must hold if the federal government is to restrain the states from banning abortion:
1.) Incorporation Doctrine based on the [unratified] 14th Amendment
2.) The Supreme Court's ability to interpret the Ninth Amendment along with others to define implicit rights
3.) The Supreme Court's ability to decide the precedence of rights at the federal level when there are conflicts (which right the government has the greatest priority to protect)
4.) Even if 1 and 3 hold, the Supreme Court also has to have the authority to decide the precedence of rights (which are pushed onto the states through the Incorporation Doctrine) at the state level, i.e. states cannot decide themselves in which order they should be enforced.

If we accept all four, the federal government can legitimately restrain the states from banning abortion...but it could also whip dangerous "implicit rights" out of thin air that don't actually exist, and then decide that they take precedence over all others (i.e. the ridiculous "rich people have the right to knock down poor people's houses, and this supercedes the poor people's property rights" example...which I'm sure is prohibited by one of the equal protection under the law clauses anyway, though I don't have time to look it up right now). Besides, for practical reasons, we've already seen why we don't want abortion at the federal level - it turns almost everyone into a single-issue voter at the expense of all other issues that truly are important at the federal level.

PHEW. At least this one was more concise and legible...if less detailed :)
 
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