Debating economics with liberals on facebook, want to help me?

brandon

SINO
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
15,414
So for the last day or two I've been debating economics with liberals on facebook. This one dude just wrote like a 15 paragraph response to me and I don't really feel like taking the time to reply.

Anyone else want to write up a reply for me? only knowledgeable coherent replies wanted. If you're not sure what I mean by this, read some of mini-me's posts for an example.

Thread: http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/topic.php?uid=111256528714&topic=9160

His post
brandon,

do you even realize that "free market capitalism" is not just a myth but a contradiction?

there is so much wrong and flawed with your failed ideology that it doesnt matter. anytime someone points out a flaw of capitalism or markets you can easily say "they werent truly free" but you fail to recognize that that is because capitalism and markets can never be free, and historically the less regulated the economies and allocation processes the more oppressive, antisocial, inefficient and undemocratic they have been.

there will always be some kind of political regulations or laws that outline the playing field. property rights, zoning laws and so on are all regulations that violate free market capitalism.

throughout this site you have regurgitated the usual milton friedman BS about innovation and competition and blah blah blah but do us a favor and name one developed country that developed through lax regulation and state intervention. cuz you know you cant name one actual free market system.

but the issue that it has never existed is not the real issue. even in theory its full of contradictions and nonsense.

market competition could probably be productive if all actors - buyers and sellers - started out on equal footing in all transactions but thats an impossibility. anytime there are inequities those in position of power use that for bargaining power to aggravate inequalities.

japan, south korea, england, US, france, germany, india, china, western and northern europe all developed through state intervention and in clear violation of free market principles.

i would really like to hear how sony or toyota or honda would ever have been if it were not for state intervention to build up the industries and to take losses year after year until the industried were built up enough to make a buck.

or explain how free enterprise could have invented GPS, satelites, cell phones, the internet, etc. All of these were invented throgh the Pentagon via tax dollars. No company would invest so much and take so much losses on such risky ventures.

the reality is that private enterprise allocated through market systems is inefficient, antisocial, inhuman and undemocratic.

since the 1950s - the socalled Golden Age of Capitalism - we have seen productivey increase over 360% (thanks to technology financed through the state sector!!!) yet we continue to work 40 hour work weeks and produce and consume more than is needed.

more resources are allocated to Beverly Hills each year for cosmecti plastic surgergy than for welfare programs in the poorest communities.

Markets are grossly inefficient since they allocate the wrong resources to the wrong places.

Pitting buyers versus sellers togethers where one gets by to fleece the others is grotesque. If you work in a firm you may put in 70 hours a week and pull in the money because your excessive effort secures your access to market shares. If you opt to work 20 hours a week and make enough to live comfortably you will see yourself cast away since someone else will likely be willing to take your market share. If a company wanted to be conscious of their ecological footprint they would sink since another company would be glad to ignore the environment in order to gain access to market shares.

And market transactions produce externalities that are the norm, not the exception. Most, if not all, market transactions widely affect third parties though they have no say in decisions that directly impact them.

Market Capitalism is a predatory monster. Neoliberalism has only survived this long thanks to keynesian economics - ie state intervention to secure the Dictatorship of Capital.
 
Last edited:
growth has always been higher in free-er economics. This isn't up for debate.

Look at North Korea vs. South Korea, East Germany vs. West Germany

Look at the Hong Kong miracle.

Look at US economic growth since it's inception.

Look at the amazing growth in Chile after Pinochet-Freidman privatization reforms - the economy absolutely rocketed.

Look at the Estonian miracle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Estonia
"After Estonia moved away from socialism in the late 1980s and became an independent capitalist economy in 1991, Estonia emerged as a pioneer in global economy. In 1994, Estonia became one of the first countries in the world to adopt a flat tax, with a uniform rate of 26% regardless of personal income. In January 2005 the personal income tax rate was reduced to 24%. A subsequent reduction to 23% followed in January 2006. In 2007 the tax rate was lowered to 22% and in 2008 to 21%. The rate was frozen in 2009. Estonia received more foreign invest ment per capita in the second half of the 1990s than any other country in Central and Eastern Europe.[4] Estonia has been fast catching up with the EU-15, having grown GDP per capita from 34.8% of the EU-15 average in 1996 to 65% in 2007, similar to Central Europe.[4] Estonia is already rated a high income country by the World Bank. The Estonian economic miracle has been termed a Baltic Tiger."

Look at the Thatcher recovery, the Reagan revolution.

Look at the horrible failure of socialism and communism in the Soviet Union and other countries (refer to the economic calculation debate).

"the reality is that private enterprise allocated through market systems is inefficient, antisocial, inhuman and undemocratic." --------> incorrect, refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem
http://mises.org/econcalc.asp

When there is any government involvement, the government must perform economic calculation (decisions about how/where/who to distribute resources) and this cannot match the free market, because consumer demand is already fully represented in the independent price mechanism.

I'm not sure what he means by "there is no such thing as a free market"

Of course there is - it's when there is no intervention by a government. Online Porn is a great example of a current mostly free market: http://mises.org/story/3668. Since it's a free market, the big corporations are being undercut, and were it any other industry, they would have received favorable regulation from government eliminating competition from the common man. Since the production has been "democratized", it is now essentially free to the consumer, and anybody can get in the market - you don't have to have any special connections.

You could refer the guy to "Capitalism" by George Reisman. It's available on capitalism.net
 
Last edited:
My question to this guy would be: How can you be so ignorant after so much education you got?
 
This is mostly a kitchen midden of assertions. Where to begin?

First of all, what is a free market? Most of these people think it's some sort of "system" or set of policies. In fact, it's the lack thereof. It's simply a concept referring to a situation in which all acts of exchange of goods and services between the people of the community are voluntary rather than coerced. Any voluntary interaction is compatible with the "free market." Any aggressive (coerced) interaction is antithetical to the "free market." Gift-giving is free market. Voluntary communes are free market entities, even though they follow some of the same economic forms as Soviet Russia. What's the difference between Stalin's collectivized farming and the collectivized farming of a Catholic monastery? The former was coerced while the latter is voluntary. Thus, "free market" simply refers to whatever happens to arise in a fully voluntary society.

Of course, there has never been a fully voluntary society. All society's that I know of have been plagued by aggression. I don't mean just petty and sporadic aggression, burglary and so forth, which are generally despised and therefore relatively harmless, but forms of aggression that are accepted and normalized by most of the society's members and that therefore can to much greater harm than any individual burglar. Common forms of culturally normalized aggression include slavery, enforced religious orthodoxy, subjugation of women, of children, of foreigners, and of other groups, various forms of ritual bodily mutilation, human sacrifice, and so on. The State is just another form of this. It's an inherently aggressive, coercive institution. If it weren't, it wouldn't be the State under our definition.

Since there has never been a society that has culturally prohibited all forms of aggression, of course there has never been an absolute free market! There has never been a crime-free society either. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't strive in the direction of an absolute free market (an absolutely voluntary economy) any more than we shouldn't strive in the direction of an absolutely crime-free society. This is a moral issue before it is a practical one and even if a free economy was less efficient than an economy riddled with coercion, we would still be for it because it is the only moral way.

Of course, we don't have to make that choice because freedom is, logically, always more efficient, more equitable, more peaceful, more prosperous, more replete with all human goods, than aggression, which never has, never will, and never can produce anything other that discord and poverty. How could it? Aggression, by definition, is an invasion of a person's legitimate boundaries. It is therefore, by definition, the generator of discord. It is also, by definition, parasitic, with the invading creature draining the strength, wealth, and might of the host. Thus, it is inherently impoverishing to the host and even to the parasite if the parasite drains the host excessively. It is certainly impoverishing to society as a whole, as it drains the productive in favor of unproductive parasites. No statistic or empirical datum can refute these axiomatic truths.

Some other points:

1) "...property rights, zoning laws and so on are all regulations..." Two totally different things. The right of property is an innate and natural right of man, each individual being inherently entitled to the fruits of his own labor. It is derived from the natural law, an extension of the right over one's own body; it has nothing to do with "regulations" in the sense he means. The State not only did not create the right of property, it infringes on it by its very existence as an enforced, territorial monopoly. The authority that the State claims over its "territory" is illegitimate precisely because the people who make up the State did not acquire through legitimate means (through their own labor or through having it given to them freely by a legitimate owner) but through violent, aggressive conquest. Zoning laws, on the other hand, are simply decrees passed by the people who make up the State, dictating what people can and can't do with their own property, violating the natural right of property once more.

2) "anytime there are inequities those in position of power use that for bargaining power to aggravate inequalities." Equality under the law is the important thing. It means that every person is possessed of the same natural rights. This is only logical since natural rights are inherent to every human soul. Any other "equality"--of wealth, of talent, of intelligence, of luck--is a chimera. Such things only matter is there is aggression involved. If there is no aggression, the fact that someone possesses more wealth than another is a morally neutral fact of life. Only when aggression is allowed are the wealthy, the smarter, the more attractive, the more ruthless allowed to prey on others. Thus, the State is the true aggravator of inequality; it will also be captured by those best positioned, who will use it to aggress against others. The idea that this apparatus of violence will or could be used the benefit the poor and downtrodden is absurd. Even welfare and union protections largely co-opt the poor and laborers respectively, making them dependent on the State and staving off possible dissent.

3) "Markets are grossly inefficient since they allocate the wrong resources to the wrong places." Who defines what's inefficient or what the "wrong places" are? Does our friend imagine himself to be some philosopher-king imbued with wisdom to make such judgments?

4) "...explain how free enterprise could have invented GPS, satelites, cell phones, the internet, etc." Who cares? This is a such ridiculous question they always ask: how, how, how, how, how...I can't lay out, in precise detail, how free enterprise could produced everything we have anymore than he could explain how his ideal economy is could have produced it had it been in place for all of human history. It's pure speculation. If there had been a pure free market for, say, the past thousand years, bereft of a singly act of aggression, who knows were the free individuals who made it up would have chosen to allocate resources and what would have been produced. I imagine medicine would be more technologically advanced. On the other hand, weapons would probably be more primitive, because there would have been no wars to spur their development. Maybe we'd still be using swords. Would that mean the free market is less efficient at developing weaponry? Or would it just mean that free and peaceful people allocate resources differently from violent, parasitic kings, dictators, and presidents? Maybe the Internet wouldn't exist right now because those resources would have been invested to grow food or make clothes instead. Or maybe the free society would develop such a thing just as it managed to develop language, money, measuring systems, customary laws, and transportation networks without the State's help. I know only one thing, material wealth would be more abundant and more equitably distributed in a free society than in a coercive one.

5) The market is "oppressive, antisocial, inhuman, grotesque, a predatory monster..." Emotional blather honeycombed with idealogical DNA descended from Marxism, whether he knows it or not. When someone is able to figure out a logically coherent reason why an act of voluntary exchange is any of those things, I'll listen. But that will never happen because there is no logical reason.
 
Last edited:
Check the latest Obama approval ratings...

Non-college graduates, some-college persons, college graduates put him around 50-52%

Post-graduate people put him at 60%

It seems that the more one stays in college, the more one becomes socialist indoctrinated. They literally teach people to hate freedom.
 
Ok I have written your reply. Here goes:


Dear ( enter facebook commie's name here) ,

Fuck You.
 
So for the last day or two I've been debating economics with liberals on facebook. This one dude just wrote like a 15 paragraph response to me and I don't really feel like taking the time to reply.

Anyone else want to write up a reply for me? only knowledgeable coherent replies wanted. If you're not sure what I mean by this, read some of mini-me's posts for an example.

Thread: http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/topic.php?uid=111256528714&topic=9160

His post


Been there done that and it would be much more productive to bang ones head against a wall.

Here's a great example of how progressives have no clue on economics and how they will pretend you never said something just to avoid a good argument you make. Link to a myspace debate in the following link:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=176715
 
Check the latest Obama approval ratings...

Non-college graduates, some-college persons, college graduates put him around 50-52%

Post-graduate people put him at 60%

It seems that the more one stays in college, the more one becomes socialist indoctrinated. They literally teach people to hate freedom.

The academic elites supported Hitler and Mussolini, too. It's like common sense flies away when they're handed their Masters.
 
this is mostly a kitchen midden of assertions. Where to begin?

First of all, what is a free market? Most of these people think it's some sort of "system" or set of policies. In fact, it's the lack thereof. It's simply a concept referring to a situation in which all acts of exchange of goods and services between the people of the community are voluntary rather than coerced. Any voluntary interaction is compatible with the "free market." any aggressive (coerced) interaction is antithetical to the "free market." gift-giving is free market. Voluntary communes are free market entities, even though they follow some of the same economic forms as soviet russia. What's the difference between stalin's collectivized farming and the collectivized farming of a catholic monastery? The former was coerced while the latter is voluntary. Thus, "free market" simply refers to whatever happens to arise in a fully voluntary society.

Of course, there has never been a fully voluntary society. All society's that i know of have been plagued by aggression. I don't mean just petty and sporadic aggression, burglary and so forth, which are generally despised and therefore relatively harmless, but forms of aggression that are accepted and normalized by most of the society's members and that therefore can to much greater harm than any individual burglar. Common forms of culturally normalized aggression include slavery, enforced religious orthodoxy, subjugation of women, of children, of foreigners, and of other groups, various forms of ritual bodily mutilation, human sacrifice, and so on. The state is just another form of this. It's an inherently aggressive, coercive institution. If it weren't, it wouldn't be the state under our definition.

Since there has never been a society that has culturally prohibited all forms of aggression, of course there has never been an absolute free market! There has never been a crime-free society either. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't strive in the direction of an absolute free market (an absolutely voluntary economy) any more than we shouldn't strive in the direction of an absolutely crime-free society. This is a moral issue before it is a practical one and even if a free economy was less efficient than an economy riddled with coercion, we would still be for it because it is the only moral way.

Of course, we don't have to make that choice because freedom is, logically, always more efficient, more equitable, more peaceful, more prosperous, more replete with all human goods, than aggression, which never has, never will, and never can produce anything other that discord and poverty. How could it? Aggression, by definition, is an invasion of a person's legitimate boundaries. It is therefore, by definition, the generator of discord. It is also, by definition, parasitic, with the invading creature draining the strength, wealth, and might of the host. Thus, it is inherently impoverishing to the host and even to the parasite if the parasite drains the host excessively. It is certainly impoverishing to society as a whole, as it drains the productive in favor of unproductive parasites. No statistic or empirical datum can refute these axiomatic truths.

Some other points:

1) "...property rights, zoning laws and so on are all regulations..." two totally different things. The right of property is an innate and natural right of man, each individual being inherently entitled to the fruits of his own labor. It is derived from the natural law, an extension of the right over one's own body; it has nothing to do with "regulations" in the sense he means. The state not only did not create the right of property, it infringes on it by its very existence as an enforced, territorial monopoly. The authority that the state claims over its "territory" is illegitimate precisely because the people who make up the state did not acquire through legitimate means (through their own labor or through having it given to them freely by a legitimate owner) but through violent, aggressive conquest. Zoning laws, on the other hand, are simply decrees passed by the people who make up the state, dictating what people can and can't do with their own property, violating the natural right of property once more.

2) "anytime there are inequities those in position of power use that for bargaining power to aggravate inequalities." equality under the law is the important thing. It means that every person is possessed of the same natural rights. This is only logical since natural rights are inherent to every human soul. Any other "equality"--of wealth, of talent, of intelligence, of luck--is a chimera. Such things only matter is there is aggression involved. If there is no aggression, the fact that someone possesses more wealth than another is a morally neutral fact of life. Only when aggression is allowed are the wealthy, the smarter, the more attractive, the more ruthless allowed to prey on others. Thus, the state is the true aggravator of inequality; it will also be captured by those best positioned, who will use it to aggress against others. The idea that this apparatus of violence will or could be used the benefit the poor and downtrodden is absurd. Even welfare and union protections largely co-opt the poor and laborers respectively, making them dependent on the state and staving off possible dissent.

3) "markets are grossly inefficient since they allocate the wrong resources to the wrong places." who defines what's inefficient or what the "wrong places" are? Does our friend imagine himself to be some philosopher-king imbued with wisdom to make such judgments?

4) "...explain how free enterprise could have invented gps, satelites, cell phones, the internet, etc." who cares? This is a such ridiculous question they always ask: How, how, how, how, how...i can't lay out, in precise detail, how free enterprise could produced everything we have anymore than he could explain how his ideal economy is could have produced it had it been in place for all of human history. It's pure speculation. If there had been a pure free market for, say, the past thousand years, bereft of a singly act of aggression, who knows were the free individuals who made it up would have chosen to allocate resources and what would have been produced. I imagine medicine would be more technologically advanced. On the other hand, weapons would probably be more primitive, because there would have been no wars to spur their development. Maybe we'd still be using swords. Would that mean the free market is less efficient at developing weaponry? Or would it just mean that free and peaceful people allocate resources differently from violent, parasitic kings, dictators, and presidents? Maybe the internet wouldn't exist right now because those resources would have been invested to grow food or make clothes instead. Or maybe the free society would develop such a thing just as it managed to develop language, money, measuring systems, customary laws, and transportation networks without the state's help. I know only one thing, material wealth would be more abundant and more equitably distributed in a free society than in a coercive one.

5) the market is "oppressive, antisocial, inhuman, grotesque, a predatory monster..." emotional blather honeycombed with idealogical dna descended from marxism, whether he knows it or not. When someone is able to figure out a logically coherent reason why an act of voluntary exchange is any of those things, i'll listen. But that will never happen because there is no logical reason.

+ 1776
 
I just posted that on the facebook thread. Awaiting a response.

I'm still impressed by how well you constructed those arguments. You got a great talent!

Thanks so much. I see the post. I do recommend that you point out you borrowed it from someone else. I'm not offended (I don't believe in intellectual property :)) but since I referred to him in the third person, I think he may be confused.

I see he's responded. If you want, I'll vet a few of his points a little later.
 
Back
Top