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Originally Posted by
osan 
We are at a point where people DO NOT WANT to be educated and prepared. They'd rather do their net.games.
Everything changes when people get hungry.
Agreed, but at that point things have usually gone past the point of repair. We really do not want to get to that stage, but I fear it will happen - unless, of course, a sufficient majority lays down for the masters, in which case all the "unpleasantness" may be avoided.
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Originally Posted by
osan
I will add one thing to this: if anyone thinks that the forces aligned against the USA will simply vanish because the independent sovereign states dissolve the Union and give a jolly "fuck you" to those for whom all this debt paper is held, they are not being realistic in even the smallest degree.
I would bet money I do not have - lots of it in fact - that if the USA dissolves, and I mean REALLY dissolves, we will become the ready targets of military conquest.
Maybe. But I don't see any really formidable neighbors.
Canada and MX can and perhaps would serve as staging areas for UN forces. Consider the present chaos in MX - UN offers a net of sorts: allow us to base operations on your soil and we will take care of your drug cartel problem free of charge. Greenland is also plenty close enough to serve as a base of operations.
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Originally Posted by
osan
We are not the Soviet Union. We are on someone's shit list for annihilation. Not necessarily physical destruction, but the dismantling of our national character and will such that we will kneel and lick the boots of the masters. This has been the goal for a long time - no big dark conspiracy need be conjured, but only the good intentions of those who think they know better. If we go into the patterns of our history, it is clear that directed intent has been and is still being applied against us.
Nah. The goal has been to milk us for all the wealth they can get. And they have just about finished. Nobody cares about you once you have no wealth left.
This is most myopic, I am afraid. Token fortune is not the goal of those in power. Generation upon generation does not maintain such firm coherence of vision for mere material wealth. The root goal is the acquisition of utter power pursuant to some unadvertised purpose.
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Originally Posted by
osan
If we broke apart, there would stand the intolerable chance that large swaths of remains of the nation would regroup to form new, strong, and possibly even FREE nations. Those who have worked generation after generation to bring us to our knees, even for what they feel are noble reasons, are not about to simply allow all that effort to be destroyed. It seems to me to be unacceptably likely that they will see such a dissolution as a possible last and only chance to see their ends achieved. Am I the only one to see masses of UN troops pouring into these states of ours in order to AVERT "disaster"?
Nobody will care once we are broke. As for UN troops, I don't think they are much to worry about. The only army in the world that can take on an enraged American public is the US army. Once it has collapsed, we will not be worth the trouble.
This is very naive, IMO. The whole point of breaking the USA is to allow for ushering in the whole of the new order. A broken American can mend in time, reasserting its independence. That would be intolerable. What remained of the people of this nation would have to be brought to heel. Leaving us to our devices would not likely serve that end.
As to enraged Americans, please - give it a rest. Most Americans I meet will fold like cheap suits when conditions are right. Offer them food, a uniform, gun, and a new sense of belonging and they will merrily go forth and suppress their neighbors up through the point of killing them. I would also point out that there's some rather novel weaponry out there that few talk about. I've worked in the industry and have known several other people who have worked in places like LLL. I doubt all that research would remain dormant on shelves in the case of a real shindig here in the good old (former?) US of A. A big question would be who controls that technology now? Given the current state of affairs here, it would not surprise me a whit if those technologies were "elsewhere", possibly in production, and being kept rather quiet.
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Originally Posted by
osan
Our slavery built our current military. We may as well keep it awhile longer until we can find a way to fix what needs correction. I guess my message here is that sudden and precipitous change might not work out too well for us in the end.
Ain't gonna have any choice in the matter. No soft landing on the flight plan. sorry. And there ain't gonna be anything to pay our military with. They won't work for waiving flags and patriotic songs.
Still worth hangin gon to them as long as possible. There are real hostiles out there.
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Originally Posted by
osan
I'd like to think otherwise, but the entire world is aligned against us, that much I am certain of. I hold no illusions that there are no nations that would enjoy the opportunity to wreak some pay back on we Evil Americans.
Everybody hates us because we are always messing in their affairs. once we stop doing that, nobody is going to get together an army and send it around the world just for the chance to beat us up. They will do it for money, but there isn't going to be any.
Agreed on the first point. As for the rest, you still miss the point - power hangs in the balance and those responsible for all this hanky panky are not going to allow the chance that a new America (or whatever) will rise in the place of the old. Power is the game, not money. Money is but a means and money is whatever those in charge say it is. The world runs on air and has for quite a while. What is to stop it from going on a while longer? Nothing. So long as people believe in the system of currency, it will serve its purpose.
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Originally Posted by
osan
I fully agree, but again that is a failure of WE THE PEOPLE and not "government" per sé. WE are government. It is OUR NEIGHBORS who have wrought this horror upon us and the rest have done next to nothing to stop it. Are we not seeing this? The problem is US, and not the "federal government". We need to get US straightened out before any large changes can succeed. It is this against which I raise the warning.
The system is broken and we are not going to fix it. and we no longer have the option of getting things "straightened out" before large changes occur. It is happening. the only question is what will arise from the ashes after this cardboard country burns to the ground.
We are not quite there yet, though I agree we a re VERY close at this time.
REPUDIATE THE DEBT. First step. Essential step.
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Originally Posted by
osan
And what about states that don't allow you to enter or exit? This seems to be yet another possibility that has not received much air time. WHat if some poor fellow living in MA gets literally stuck there when they go mega communist and close their borders and shoot anyone attempting to leave? Can't happen? Guess again. What then? I don't like this idea of a patchwork where if I drive from one state into another I may find myself in prison because I wore a red shirt on Tuesday, which constitutes a felony there. What about constitutional protections such as presumption of innocence? Right to trial by jury? To remain silent? What if a state decides it's prefectly OK to beat a confession out of you? There is SO much that can go wrong - equally wrong with what we currently have and well beyond.
you really think the Federal government is your protector against the evil states?
I didn't write that nor did I imply it. The CONTRACT between the states, as embodied in our CONSTITUTION sets forth, albeit poorly, a standard of governance required for membership in the Union. It really has nothing to do with the federal government per se insofar as operations go. Were we to strip out the federal government from the Constitution, there would still remain the elements of that minimal standard of governance. Free speech, trial by jury, RKBA, equal protection, and so forth. There is grand virtue in holding to these principles. Our Union does not have to ba an all or nothign affair. How about we toss the stuff that isn't working and keep that which does? How about ENFORCING that which has been unconstitutionally abandoned, like minting nothing but gold and silver coin? Come one - wrap your head around this a bit better. There is some stuff to jettison but not all of it.
It is the federal government that enforced the banking scam.
And WE allowed it. You did. I did. Everyone on this forum did, as did every citizen of this nation. Whose fault is it? OURS - all ours. We let them do it. Nothing anyone can say will alter that truth. Now we are in the shit and only we can save it. Toss your hands up if you please. You will likely get what you wish for in the not too distant future - in one form or another. I am not sure it will be what you think.
It is the Federal government that cluster bombs women and children.
It is YOU who allows it. We are all of us guilty to the eyeballs on these accounts.
The states are amateurs when it comes to tyranny... It isn't. But I accept that some states may go the wrong way. so don't go to those states.
Amaterurs? Are you serious? Have you ever lived in NJ? They are no amateurs.
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Originally Posted by
osan
Would things necessarily go that way? No - but what if they do? How does anyone know that the state legislatures are not as severely influenced by malicious third party influences as is teh federal government? Consider this: you claim it is much harder to correct the wrong at the federal level - I agree. Conversely, it is also far easier to speed the progress of the wrong at the state level. Money and privilege in back room deals do not come to a halt just because the level of operation has gone down one notch. Each state can invoke "national security" and hide its activities just as readily as can the feds. What difference, fifty corrupt states or one corrupt nation?
the chance of having a few free republics arise among the states is much higher than the chance of reforming the Federal government. I don't need all fifty states to become free republics. Just one. Pretty good odds of that.
Uh huh. One or ten.... who cares when the rest inevitably align against them? Again you miss the point completely. Those looking to defeat this nation are not going to tolerate smaller "free" ones. They will each become targets, most likely through economic warfare. No matter how you slice it, the free states that might emerge from the dissolution of the Union will remain under attack.
I recommend we preserve the Union - fix what needs it and move on. America is a good thing. If we took the correct measures, like dissolving most of the federal government and apportioning our standing army amongst the states, repudate the debts, reestablish proper currency, get out of the world's business, try-convict-execute the traitors, hunted the gloablists and murdered them - we would be on the road to recovery. How about COnstitutional Amendments that mete out a mandatory death sentence to all federal employees convicted of violating the rights of the citizens? We could go on, but perhaps the point is made.
