Court hears case over gay wedding cake

[AZJoe]

 

[Suzanimal]

The Case that Should Not Even Go to the Supreme Court
Laurence M. Vance

The Supreme Court has said that it will consider in its next term whether a baker unlawfully discriminated against a gay couple by refusing to sell them a wedding cake. This is a case that should have been laughed out of court. In a free society, businesses can discriminate against customers the same way that customers can discriminate against businesses. See my articles on discrimination here.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/case-not-even-go-supreme-court/

 

[Swordsmyth]

I am very afraid of this case because Kennedy and Roberts are still on the court.

 

[Dangergirl]

This issue always reminds me of one particular time at lunch in NY. I was out buying lunch for my shop which is something pretty common, you make a list and everyone jumps in, and it was always a welcomed escape from work. There was a deli, either Middle-Eastern or Turkish (I was too young and naive to know the difference) that sold the best hot dogs in town. Everyday there was a line out the door for these dogs alone, although they sold all sorts of cuisine native to their culture. One day a well dressed woman came in with her own workplace lunch list which ended with a "ham and American cheese" sandwich. The expression on the clerk's face began to sour and you could tell he took offense to the request but he held it in and corrected her cultural faux pas, "We don't serve ham here." She questioned this in a puzzled tone "what?" and he repeated that they don't serve ham here. She didn't make a fuss nor did she protest, she just flushed with embarrassment and left to go to the deli across the street that did sell ham.

We used to go to Taco Bell during midnight munchies and ask for ketchup as a joke because it was completely absurd. If you want ketchup go somewhere that has it, pretty simple. I'm not sure why people can't understand how respecting another's right to individuality preserves everyone's lifestyle. Can you imagine calling a Chinese restaurant racist because they refuse to serve you tacos or holding a Catholic wedding at a gay nightclub? The outrage and the uproar would be timeless but what would be the argument if a Christian baker is forced to bake a cake that some idiot couple can easily get elsewhere?

You have the freedom to participate in every cultural experience there is and it's wonderful to have the option and variety for those experiences. What a shame it would be to force all cultures to conform into a collective because a one-sided issue that's too shallow to see the dangerous precedent of imposing your beliefs onto someone else.

 

[dannno]

One way to see it is that Colorado already has laws that force public accomodations to serve people regardless of that persons's status. I'm not sure why the Colorado baker thinks he is above the law. Plus, equal protection and all that.

Hmmm, I wonder if Anne Frank thought she was above the law because she was hiding in an attic

 

[phill4paul]

One way to see it is that Colorado already has laws that force public accomodations to serve people regardless of that persons's status. I'm not sure why the Colorado baker thinks he is above the law. Plus, equal protection and all that.

Some animals are more equal.

 

[Dr.No.]

Hmmm, I wonder if Anne Frank thought she was above the law because she was hiding in an attic

You are equating the Nuremberg laws with anti-discrimination laws?

 

[Dr.No.]

This issue always reminds me of one particular time at lunch in NY. I was out buying lunch for my shop which is something pretty common, you make a list and everyone jumps in, and it was always a welcomed escape from work. There was a deli, either Middle-Eastern or Turkish (I was too young and naive to know the difference) that sold the best hot dogs in town. Everyday there was a line out the door for these dogs alone, although they sold all sorts of cuisine native to their culture. One day a well dressed woman came in with her own workplace lunch list which ended with a "ham and American cheese" sandwich. The expression on the clerk's face began to sour and you could tell he took offense to the request but he held it in and corrected her cultural faux pas, "We don't serve ham here." She questioned this in a puzzled tone "what?" and he repeated that they don't serve ham here. She didn't make a fuss nor did she protest, she just flushed with embarrassment and left to go to the deli across the street that did sell ham.

We used to go to Taco Bell during midnight munchies and ask for ketchup as a joke because it was completely absurd. If you want ketchup go somewhere that has it, pretty simple. I'm not sure why people can't understand how respecting another's right to individuality preserves everyone's lifestyle. Can you imagine calling a Chinese restaurant racist because they refuse to serve you tacos or holding a Catholic wedding at a gay nightclub? The outrage and the uproar would be timeless but what would be the argument if a Christian baker is forced to bake a cake that some idiot couple can easily get elsewhere?

You have the freedom to participate in every cultural experience there is and it's wonderful to have the option and variety for those experiences. What a shame it would be to force all cultures to conform into a collective because a one-sided issue that's too shallow to see the dangerous precedent of imposing your beliefs onto someone else.

I suppose the idea is that a business isn't being forced to do something it doesn't do, but being forced to do something it does. IE, a Chinese restaurant doesn't serve tacos. But they can serve egg rolls to everyone.

You can just as easily say that if you don't want to respect the norms and laws of the place your business is set up, feel free to set up your business elsewhere.

In any case, I think this is a distraction. Over time, any company that discriminates on the basis of sexuality is going to go down the tubes, not by government decree, but by simple social norms. Lets focus on reducing taxes and regulations that actually have major impacts on us that silly issues like this.

 

[dannno]

You are equating the Nuremberg laws with anti-discrimination laws?

Yes, they are both wrong, anti-discrimination laws amount to slavery and it is not a bad thing to choose not to follow bad laws. It may result in a negative outcome, so I don't necessarily recommend breaking bad laws, but it certainly is not immoral to break unjust laws.

What if this guy is right, and he is following God's commandments by not baking a gay wedding cake? You are trying to deny him entrance into heaven? That seems a lot worse to me than even the Nuremberg laws which are terrestrial laws with terrestrial outcomes.

Of course, I don't think he is right about that, but he has every right to believe what he does and he has every right to bake cakes for whoever he wants.

 

[dannno]

I suppose the idea is that a business isn't being forced to do something it doesn't do, but being forced to do something it does. IE, a Chinese restaurant doesn't serve tacos. But they can serve egg rolls to everyone.

You can just as easily say that if you don't want to respect the norms and laws of the place your business is set up, feel free to set up your business elsewhere.

In any case, I think this is a distraction. Over time, any company that discriminates on the basis of sexuality is going to go down the tubes, not by government decree, but by simple social norms. Lets focus on reducing taxes and regulations that actually have major impacts on us that silly issues like this.

Here's an example of the slippery slope anti-discrimination laws are creating.

I am helping a friend rent out a room on craigslist. In the ad, I want to put that it is for single occupants only. Craigslist says I can't do that, because it is discriminating against families. There is no way in hell my friend is going to rent this single room out to an entire fucking family. So instead of filtering people out by telling them up front that the room is for a single occupant, you have to get a bunch of emails from families or couples who want to rent out a single room.

Besides the minor annoyance, even after leaving the language out you could actually be sued for not renting to someone who emails you if they believe you are discriminating based on their status as a family.

Additionally, if there are 2 girls living in an apartment and they want to rent a room out to another girl, they can't put that in their craigslist ad because that is sexual discrimination. Even if they say there are two girls living there, the post can get flagged and taken down, I've seen it before. Craigslist recommends describing the premises, not the people who live there or the type of people they desire to live there.

Can't you see how this is seriously getting to the point of insanity?

 

[otherone]

You can just as easily say that if you don't want to respect the norms and laws of the place your business is set up, feel free to set up your business elsewhere.

YEAH.
Like SOMALIA.
Ya frikkin' anarchists.

"Mu-uh roooaaads uber alles...uber alles mu-uh-uh roads."

 

[BSWPaulsen]

SCOTUS needs to get this decision right. The sheer arrogance of those that would command the baker to make a cake against his will deserves a bullet.

 

[Dr.No.]

Yes, they are both wrong, anti-discrimination laws amount to slavery and it is not a bad thing to choose not to follow bad laws. It may result in a negative outcome, so I don't necessarily recommend breaking bad laws, but it certainly is not immoral to break unjust laws.

Slavery? No one is forcing the guy to be a baker. All we are saying that if he wants to be a baker, there are certain rules he has to follow.

What if this guy is right, and he is following God's commandments by not baking a gay wedding cake? You are trying to deny him entrance into heaven? That seems a lot worse to me than even the Nuremberg laws which are terrestrial laws with terrestrial outcomes.

Of course, I don't think he is right about that, but he has every right to believe what he does and he has every right to bake cakes for whoever he wants.

This is why I mentioned that this is a distraction. Taxes and regulations have real consequences. They really stifle businesses, growth, etc. But preventing people from being racist or bigoted doesn't do the same; if anything, removing those kinds of barriers enhances productivity. Like you mentioned, his concerns about "God's commandments" are utter bogus. I mean, you could easily flip this. What if a guy believes that God's commandment is that he has to force people to live a Christian way of life? What if he uses government to do so? If you try and stop him, you are denying him entrance to heaven! Wouldn't that be a terrible thing?

Here's an example of the slippery slope anti-discrimination laws are creating.

I am helping a friend rent out a room on craigslist. In the ad, I want to put that it is for single occupants only. Craigslist says I can't do that, because it is discriminating against families. There is no way in hell my friend is going to rent this single room out to an entire $#@!ing family. So instead of filtering people out by telling them up front that the room is for a single occupant, you have to get a bunch of emails from families or couples who want to rent out a single room.

Sure, there are poor applications of the principle, but that shouldn't mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Some traffic laws are not good, but that doesn't mean all of them are bad!

Plus, your buddy is basically complaining that he has to screen his emails. Cry me a river. Now, I would still say that when it comes to renting out your own private property, you should be able to rent it to whoever you want, at whatever price, only because of the personal nature of renting out living space. There is no hard rule...I'd also say that craigslist should allow you to post your listing as you want it. I think that it gets trickier with larger housing developers that claim EO or to be non-discriminatory...then I'd want more transparency.

Additionally, if there are 2 girls living in an apartment and they want to rent a room out to another girl, they can't put that in their craigslist ad because that is sexual discrimination. Even if they say there are two girls living there, the post can get flagged and taken down, I've seen it before. Craigslist recommends describing the premises, not the people who live there or the type of people they desire to live there.

Can't you see how this is seriously getting to the point of insanity?

I singled this out because I'm not sure this is against CL policy. I've definitely put gender restrictions on my postings.

SJWism etc. is getting insane (it is just the balance swinging one way after having swung in the other way for a long time; arc of history is long and all that), but that doesn't mean you toss out all of it.

I mean, there is a point to be made on why some people are planting their flag on this issue. From the colonial era to the 1960s, states had individual laws dictating how businesses could behave. No discrimination based on religion. No discrimination based on land-holding status. No discrimination based on beard length (yes, really). Criminilization of interracial marriage. Criminilization of homosexual acts. Criminilazation of serving a woman.

Yet, where were people protesting these unjust laws? Where were people talking about private property rights, freedom, liberty, etc? Then you have the Civil Rights act, and all of a sudden, these people come out of the woodwork. Now you try to have equal protection for gays, and the same people are out in force. Those who did not lift a finger to help with civil rights or gay marriage, are claiming to be principled!

 

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Title: Video puts Muslim bakeries, florists in gay-rights spotlight


By Valerie Richardson - The Washington Times - Sunday, April 5, 2015

Muslim bakers and florists have flown under the media radar during the recent uproar over Christian-owned businesses and gay rights, but a hidden-camera video may have changed that.

The video showing Muslim bakers in Michigan reluctant to bake a cake for a gay wedding went viral last weekend, snaring more than 2.2 million views in three days and igniting debate over whether Christian business owners are being singled out for lawsuits, complaints and media focus.

***

In the video, Mr. Crowder asks for a wedding cake with the message, “Ben and Steven forever.” Some employees refer him elsewhere. One baker shakes his head and says, “No, no, I don’t want it,” apparently referring to the cake-baking job.

“Many of the Muslim bakeries were kind enough and willing to serve us, but many of them were not,” Mr. Crowder said.

More at link...http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/5/video-puts-muslim-bakeries-florists-in-gay-rights-/

..

 

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Where was the fake news, mainstream media when Moslem bakeries refused such cakes?

 

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Stop being a wussy. If someone does not want my business, then I don't beg them for it. I go to their competition. I give the rejecting merchant a F*ck you! to boot. I don't cry or force them through government.

These cake losers crying to government need to man up. They need the swift kick in the ass they never got. There is no such thing as "gay rights." You don't have a "right" to your cake. Guess that logic is useless for today's progressive.

 

[Danke]

Where was the fake news, mainstream media when Moslem bakeries refused such cakes?

Another podcasts the Nigerian hates, shame he doesn't have a donation page.

 

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

 

[Danke]

Slavery? No one is forcing the guy to be a baker. All we are saying that if he wants to be a baker, there are certain rules he has to follow.



This is why I mentioned that this is a distraction. Taxes and regulations have real consequences. They really stifle businesses, growth, etc. But preventing people from being racist or bigoted doesn't do the same; if anything, removing those kinds of barriers enhances productivity. Like you mentioned, his concerns about "God's commandments" are utter bogus. I mean, you could easily flip this. What if a guy believes that God's commandment is that he has to force people to live a Christian way of life? What if he uses government to do so? If you try and stop him, you are denying him entrance to heaven! Wouldn't that be a terrible thing?



Sure, there are poor applications of the principle, but that shouldn't mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Some traffic laws are not good, but that doesn't mean all of them are bad!

Plus, your buddy is basically complaining that he has to screen his emails. Cry me a river. Now, I would still say that when it comes to renting out your own private property, you should be able to rent it to whoever you want, at whatever price, only because of the personal nature of renting out living space. There is no hard rule...I'd also say that craigslist should allow you to post your listing as you want it. I think that it gets trickier with larger housing developers that claim EO or to be non-discriminatory...then I'd want more transparency.



I singled this out because I'm not sure this is against CL policy. I've definitely put gender restrictions on my postings.

SJWism etc. is getting insane (it is just the balance swinging one way after having swung in the other way for a long time; arc of history is long and all that), but that doesn't mean you toss out all of it.

I mean, there is a point to be made on why some people are planting their flag on this issue. From the colonial era to the 1960s, states had individual laws dictating how businesses could behave. No discrimination based on religion. No discrimination based on land-holding status. No discrimination based on beard length (yes, really). Criminilization of interracial marriage. Criminilization of homosexual acts. Criminilazation of serving a woman.

Yet, where were people protesting these unjust laws? Where were people talking about private property rights, freedom, liberty, etc? Then you have the Civil Rights act, and all of a sudden, these people come out of the woodwork. Now you try to have equal protection for gays, and the same people are out in force. Those who did not lift a finger to help with civil rights or gay marriage, are claiming to be principled!

How do you feel about bestiality or necrophilia? Can I make a business bake me a cake with that expressed on it too?

 

[Chester Copperpot]

One way to see it is that Colorado already has laws that force public accomodations to serve people regardless of that persons's status. I'm not sure why the Colorado baker thinks he is above the law. Plus, equal protection and all that.

Its a PRIVATE bakery... ITs not public...